(SPF 1000) Vampire Sunscreen

True crime historian and author Kate Winkler Dawson discusses the literal darkness of rural areas, and the role of empathy in true crime research.

(SPF 1000) Vampire Sunscreen is a listener-supported production of KUT & KUTX Studios in Austin, Texas.

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The full transcript of this episode of (SPF 1000) Vampire Sunscreen is available on the KUT & KUTX Studio website. The transcript is also available as subtitles or captions on some podcast apps.

Laurie Gallardo: [00:00:00] Often in this podcast, we refer to the darkness in a metaphorical sense, but there’s also the literal darkness. Is it too frightening to look to walk into it? You may be surprised to discover that when you explore it, you’ll learn more about yourself than anything hidden in the shadows. Welcome to SPF 1000 Vampire Sunscreen.

Hi, I am Laurie Gallardo. Thank you for listening. SPF 1000 Vampire Sunscreen is a listener supported production of KUT and KUTX studios in Austin, Texas. If you like what you’re hearing, you can support this podcast@supportthispodcast.org. Just click on the link in the show notes page and on this episode, an absolute treat.

Our guest shares fascinating stories, with great attention to detail, and with a lot of compassion.

Kate Winkler Dawson: I am Kate Winkler Dawson, and I am first and foremost a professor here at the University of Texas of journalism. I am a podcaster, so I have three shows on the exactly right network, which are Tenfold More Wicked , Wicked Words and Buried Bones, and they’re all historical true crime. And then I’m an author of four and a half to five nonfiction books.

Laurie Gallardo: One of the things I admire most about Kate is her ability to vividly draw you in to whatever story she’s featuring on one of her podcasts or in her books. You are there in whatever year or century it takes place in that specific setting, she brings it to life. With [00:02:00] sensitive subject matter, for example, a murder case, it really makes a difference.

These aren’t merely gruesome sensationalized details. Kate is unfolding layers that lead her listeners and readers to a better understanding. Of what happened. So Kate, I’m going to ask you the big question. Now. I ask this of all my guests. It’s the theme of my podcast and it’s this. Kate, what is the darkness to you?

What is dark to you?

Kate Winkler Dawson: I think the jumping point for that for me is just literal darkness that I experienced growing up in the countryside. Which I’ve talked about before. You know, my father and my stepmother had a, a ranch, really a farm that used to be a pig farm, just about an hour away from Austin. So I would split time when my parents divorced.

I would be [00:03:00] here in Austin city life, such as, it was, I guess you could call this city life. And then I would go out to the country where we had horses and cows and it was a, a large amount of land, which as an adult. Sounds absolutely wonderful to me. I would love to replicate that. The house that we were in was built in 1890 and my grandfather moved it from Lockhart, literally had somebody pick it up and move it from Lockhart to interest where the house is.

Wow. And he created this farm and, and there’s a lot of history there, but when I was a kid, I had a ton of anxiety that wasn’t treated because I don’t think anybody really had, for me, at least in my family, we hadn’t really picked up on what it meant, which is odd because one of the things I would do to self-regulate was I would go out in the middle of the night and I would run pitch black outside, up and down with a dirt gravel path.

Sometimes I would fall. You know, [00:04:00] because I was tripping. I mean, we’re talking about like one or two in the morning and just run back and forth, listen to music, run back and forth, back and forth. And you know, I had stopped to think about it as I was getting older and what I was surrounded by. ’cause I guess when I was a kid at eight or nine.

I don’t know. It was oblivious to the dark. I always kind of joke about it and I’ve actually, I feel like I’ve said this in every book, there was nothing there but Starlight and Moonlight and I would sometimes run in the rain. I mean anything to calm myself so I could go to sleeps. When I got older, I really started looking around and thinking, you know, we had some, there was some kind of high profile murderers, not in that town, but surrounding it.

And my dad was a law professor and my mom was a clinical psychologist who was really, really into true crime. And so when I started having more adult conversations with them, the idea of darkness in the countryside I think is one of the things that really sparked my interest in true [00:05:00] crime because. The first book I wrote was about, uh, deadly Smog in London in 1952, and then there’s this serial killer along with other people who were trapped in the smog at the same time.

And what I, the way I describe the, the smog as the way I think about the countryside for me. Which is, you know, the idea of London fog, it’s very, very romantic and you’re walking along with the person that you love, arm in arm, and you’re kind of getting sprayed in the face with mist and it’s just you two in this world, even though there are a lot of people around it.

But the way I painted that picture. In the book about the smog and death in the air was very much like, and then it’s terrifying because I talk about a police officer who can’t see his hand when he sticks his arm out, and there are people committing crimes around him and he can’t do anything about it.

So that terrifying juxtaposition between. Darkness [00:06:00] outside for me and hearing the crickets and the owls and things rustling when I do like to be a little scared versus feeling actual fear. We didn’t lock our doors at night and the countryside, we never did. I don’t even think there’s locks on there now and.

There’s a vulnerability when you get older and you start realizing that there are bad people out there. And you know, now these days, if we went out and spent the night out there, I would be concerned about methadone, meth, you know, all around in that area. And so there’s this juxtaposition for me of darkness where I like kind of being on edge and what’s out there.

There’s a piece, there’s no. Car lights and you know, nothing. I lived in New York, I lived in San Francisco and LA and London. There’s none of none of that. That sort of shakes you. But every time I do a story with, with Paul on buried bones and it we’re in the countryside, you know, there’s a creepiness factor about it, [00:07:00] and it’s not a criticism of.

Rural areas. I love rural areas. I want a lot. I probably would love to have 200 acres somewhere that’s relatively isolated, but I also have done enough of these stories to know that bad things can happen when you’re that isolated. So I think literal darkness is my jumping off point to creating what we just talked about.

A really good atmosphere. I think it’s visceral. You know what, you have to paint that picture. It has to be visceral for the reader or the listener.

Laurie Gallardo: Absolutely visceral. That’s the word that I was thinking of. I’ve often thought though that the appreciating that, that having that kind of insight gives people a certain edge because I don’t think people always have that.

Whether it is some kind of appreciation for the darkness or kind of looking into it, looking into the face of whatever, maybe something you don’t wanna look at. I think sometimes it’s a gift for some people, especially if you are [00:08:00] sharing these stories. I don’t see you simply as a storyteller. It kind of goes beyond that and, and I think that’s also why people connect so much when you give attention to the people who were victimized when you tell their stories.

Because you do, I, I know that, I know that. I’ve heard you do that. Endless times, and I think all of us have had to educate ourselves when it comes to that. We would tend to be fascinated with the criminal and kind of dive into their story. I think that’s a natural curiosity. But yourself and so many people that I also follow, they’ve had to like step back and go, okay, you know what, let’s.

Look into the lives of the people who were affected, those who lost their lives, et cetera. But I just think having that look into the darkness, the way you described. Especially with your book about a London fog and not really seeing your hand in front of your face. I think that gives you an [00:09:00] edge. I think that gives you an advantage.

Kate Winkler Dawson: I hope so. I think one of the things you have to do with storytelling, especially when you’re telling real stories, and for me that are quite old, from the 18 hundreds, 17 hundreds, early 19 hundreds, you really have to put yourself in the position. Uh, you know, the family and of the victim primarily first.

So, Paul and I were doing a story on buried bones that happened in the late 18 hundreds in upstate New York. A young woman was hit by a train. They were trying to figure out if it was suicide or what happened. And we were talking about how her family was very, very controlling. She was adopted and she had just sort of been enslaved in a way by them and how controlling this family was and how they had said, well, the neighbors had said she’d become more and more isolated and.

The family was saying that [00:10:00] this young woman had gone out and said, I will be back. And it was nine o’clock at night and then by 10 they got worried and started knocking on doors, you know? And I was telling Paul as a parent of two 15-year-old girls, I know the 18 hundreds were a little bit. Different in that people had a lot of leeway and you know, I think they were a little bit more naive about what was out there, but there’s just absolutely no way that this family who was so controlling was gonna let a young girl walk around a 17-year-old in the total darkness in rural, upstate New York without having at least a loving family would at least getting get tabs on her.

And so that all really does play into, I think, you know, me understanding younger girls especially who are oftentimes. The victims that we talk about. I think me understanding that has been pretty important. I don’t know if it occurred to Paul, but I just said, isn’t this all kind of odd? And, and this is not.

I think whether she’s from 1870 or [00:11:00] my kids now in 2025, this is abnormal behavior. And so, you know, that really helped us kind of go down a particular road. So I think it’s also human behavior. I don’t think it’s wrong for people to be interested in the killer. I’m interested in the killer. Sure. But I think number one, it’s futile sometimes to figure out what they were thinking.

I think number two, what really ticks me off is when, particularly like readers, but also or, or listeners, but also authors just throw it all to mental illness. Well, he would’ve never done that shooting spree had he not been mentally ill, and that’s awful. For people who have mental health struggles and.

It’s stigmatizing and it’s not right. Sometimes people are just assholes. Some people are misogynistic or angry at it doesn’t mean they’re mentally ill and some people have disorders, so there’s a lot that kind of goes into that, and I think the more that I talk about. [00:12:00] What, primarily what I talk about is men killing women.

The more I try to think about empathizing and how would I feel in this situation. So what I wish more true crime creators would do, content creators, podcasters, writers, whoever it is, is think, would I, when I’m done with this product, would I show it to the family? Of this young woman of Gabby Petito or whoever you’re reporting on, would I be comfortable showing it to them?

And if not, you are doing the wrong thing. It’s not good. And if you were lo, if you’d lost your sister, the way anybody has lost any victim in true crime, no matter how banal you think it is, if you had lost that person, you know, how would you feel about people doing it?

Laurie Gallardo: I don’t know if you’ve ever had to. [00:13:00] Let people know, or perhaps you’re in a, a social situation where they may not be familiar with your work. And if you started to explain, like to me, you, I mean, you see me hanging onto your words, Kate. I don’t have to say that. Thank you. Um, but, but hi, I’m just like gripping my knees and I’m, oh, gimme that glass of wine.

I’m here for the whole thing. You keep me here for two hours. Have you ever been in a situation where that’s not the case?

Kate Winkler Dawson: I would say. No, except I, I’ve never had anybody challenge me and say, how could you do that? I certainly have people do who don’t wanna to dig around a little bit about what I do. But you know, like I work out with a guy with my personal trainer and he just.

We’ll pop up with something like he said, oh, you, you heard that the Idaho guy took a a plea deal? And he’ll just, you know, people will kind of randomly say that when I know that, when they know what I do. And then there, and then there’s a woman there who [00:14:00] will not talk about, she has no interest in talking about it.

And that’s fine. That’s fine. I think when I have, when people ask me about that, I have definitely had some people message me about. How do you give an answer? It’s, it’s not an attack on me. It’s sort of, what would you say if somebody, if there’s a parent who says to their child, how could you do this? Or if they’re a content creator and the parent says, you know, how could you make money off of.

Someone’s death and you know that that is the reality is you’re talking about a story that involves real people. I have a phrase I’ve used on the show called the debtor, the better. I don’t like dealing with live people at all, and I don’t have a problem with people doing that. I certainly think there are stories that need to be illuminated and told that are kind of clear and present dangers.

Like with the Gabby Petito story when she was still out there and we didn’t know what was happening, but I feel like it would be very hard for me to talk to the [00:15:00] family. A victim, a current victim, the grandparents, anyone who actually knew someone, it would be hard for me, and that’s just my boundary. But when someone says, well, you know, what makes you fascinated with true crime?

I say, number one. The empathy factor, right? Just what we talked about. Number two, I love a good puzzle. I mean, I, and, and the atmosphere of true crime appeals to me. You know, like I’ve said, if I could have a gas lamp in every room of my house and wouldn’t burn down the house, that’s what I would do. I don’t like horror movies.

I have one kid who loves them, but she’s so scared of true crime. It’s unreal. And the other one loves true crime and will not watch horror movies. So, you know what, whatever appeals to someone. I will usually then follow up with one is the empathy part of it where I connect with someone. And then the other part is the mystery.

How would I have handled this if I were a police officer, investigator? [00:16:00] And then I think the third part of it is I work very hard to bring up these subjects, which we don’t talk, you don’t hear in the media, domestic violence, people who are underrepresented in true crime. The mental health toll, that being an investigator.

Is, I mean, it’s a nightmare for a lot of those people. Paul talks about it all the time that it broke up his, his first marriage. And you know, there’s a lot that goes in that is not simply one person killing another person. Those are the things that are really important, uh, for me. And, and the, I explain things in that way.

I also say, you know, there are things that I try to set that I hopefully can set apart from. Other true crime creators. Maybe one time I’ve, and it was in a quote, have described a woman as beautiful, who gives a shit? Does it matter? I mean, our unattractive people less worthy of not being try, you know, true crime victims.

I know. And you know, in society that’s what we focus on is the [00:17:00] loss. Of losing Gabby Petito is that she was this beautiful young woman. No, the loss is that she was a beloved sister, family member, daughter of, of people. That she was really caring, that she had a creative side that she was trying to connect.

I mean, that is the loss. And often to me the loss is the man has a lot of potential or he made a lot of money and he was doing, you know, um, a lot of good. And the fact that he was a father kind of comes secondary, but. We’re always looking for that first obituary line, is what I call it. Mm-hmm. Like if somebody’s gonna write your obituary, what is that first line?

You know, Kate Winkler, Dawson comma, true crime historian and author comm. That’s what you’re known for. But oftentimes with women, it’s like Kate Winkler, Dawson, comma, mother of three is found murdered. Oftentimes we don’t see John Doe father of four, it’s John Doe, the professor at University of Texas or whatever.

So [00:18:00] I think making these people more three dimensional is very important. And so when I say all of that, that usually shuts people down. And then they’re kind of like, okay, well maybe I should start listening to true crime or watching True Crime. I think it’s the way you handle it. I did something interesting I had never done before.

I teach a True Crime podcast class here at UT and I asked my students and then later I asked on, uh, poll on the show. What are the true crime stories that you guys think? Define your generation. What are you most interested in? And they said, Gabby Petito and the Idaho four. Why did they say that? Because these are victims who are their age that they could connect to.

And with both of those stories, those victims. Use social media in a way that my students are used to. And so I, I have seen several stories on Gabby Petito. I have never felt like I have known a victim the way I feel like I’ve known [00:19:00] Gabby Petito because there is so much of her. She recorded so much. It’s incredible.

And so, you know, you hear her voice and then, I mean, I don’t even think we can get into this controversy. It would be ours. But the fact that they used an AI of her voice to read some of her text messages that the family gave, both all, all four members of the family gave permission and her parents. I see, I see.

But you know, there are a lot of things like that where, you know, my students said, well, this is what’s. For me, what’s kind of groundbreaking and you know, when I talked about it on the show, I interviewed in my other show, wicked Words. I interviewed Marsha Clark, who was a prosecutor with OJ Simpson, who is one of the most fabulous guests I’ve ever had.

She’s wonderful. And she also had prosecuted the case about Rebecca Scha. Who was the young actress on My sister Sammy. My

Laurie Gallardo: sister Sammy.

Kate Winkler Dawson: And I loved that sitcom when I was young [00:20:00] and she was murdered by a stalker. And I told Marsha Clark, uh, that was the first time I really understood what that meant. And she said this was probably the first big case of a stalker who literally walked up and, and killed her.

And knocked on the door and killed her and had been a known stalker. And then of course, OJ Simpson several years later was pivotal. But it’s probably the biggest impact that cases has had on me was the yogurt shop murders here in Austin, because I was their exact age. I was at LASA when they were at. I can’t remember what McCallum, maybe, I can’t remember who the girls were, but when you connect in that way, that’s important.

My mother was here on campus during the shootings, during the, the sniper shootings, and so that case plus Manson resonated for her. She’s 82, so I think that. It is not simply a oh man, the idea of, you know, a sniper up there and shooting and how, like [00:21:00] scary that must have been. I don’t think that’s the connection a lot of these true crime audiences make.

It’s sometimes from somebody from their generation. They could have been there. What the fear must have been like for someone in there. My mom was in her twenties. So what was that like? And the, the memory of it, you’re putting yourself in that place. I can’t relate to Gabby Petito because I just, I’m not like that with social media, but my students just, were erect over it.

So it’s interesting the way that happens. I happen to really enjoy old cases because I like the challenge of readers at the end of it going. I am so sorry that the killer of Sarah Cornell got away with it. And this is a woman from 1832. The flip side is I a, I had an older woman at a retirement home. Who I did a littles field for.

And they were, they were all great. And she said, so was Sarah a trollop? Which by the way, I haven’t heard anybody in real life [00:22:00] actually use that phrase before. And I said, it doesn’t matter. I said it nicely, but I mean, why does that matter? And these different, you know, there are different generations.

There was an older man there who was in his nineties who said, well, you know, I know that she said she was sexually assaulted by this minister in a forest, but also could it have been consensual? And she had gotten pregnant. And instead of saying. Don’t be an asshole. That’s not what happened. I presented the evidence that, you know, ire went over the evidence again and said this is what happened, and he got it after that.

So true crime oftentimes is me kind of defending people’s actions. You know, I told a story one time about a young woman who didn’t come home when she was supposed to from her grandparents’ house in San Francisco in the early 19 hundreds, and the parents didn’t report her missing for, I think it was two days.

Well. This is very common. The phone systems, if you look at a story like The Bloody Benders, which happened in the 17 hundreds of family and in the Midwest who were just killing people who [00:23:00] were passing through their homestead nonstop. Yeah. Sometimes people wouldn’t know what what, what would happen to their family members because they were gone for weeks, just on a normal time traveling.

Yeah. So I have to say. I know this sounds crazy that the parents didn’t report her missing for at least 48 hours, but this would not have been unusual. Sending your kids five blocks away in London in the late 18 hundreds would not have been unusual. An 8-year-old wandering around. It’s just you have to put it into context for people and then they start going, man, that must’ve been hard raising kids in that time period.

You know? Then you empathize, and that’s what I’m looking for is the empathy.

Laurie Gallardo: I think empathy, and I love saying connection because when I do listen to buried bones, when I listen to your podcasts, when I’m about to dive into a book, that’s the big one for me. That’s the big feeling for me. Connecting. Yeah.

Somehow, some way I’ve always been able to do that. [00:24:00] I’ve always been able to connect to something. I think that that’s an incredible I. Experience.

Kate Winkler Dawson: I think some creators don’t make it very easy on you though. I mean, I think that there are certainly a lot of creators who skip over that part. So, you know, there’s a story that I told Paul from the 17 hundreds about a woman who lives in a homestead with her husband.

Seems kind of like a loveless marriage. He was younger, much younger than him. I, it sounded like he might’ve been a little abusive. And during the Revolutionary War, there were young men who were walking up and down New England like they would fight, fight, fight, and then they would walk for hundreds of miles to get home, to be off for however long, a few months, and then they have to walk back.

And there was a young man who walked past the homestead several times and they ended up having an affair and she got pregnant and she had. Not been having sex with her husband, so it would’ve been very clear that this was not his child and they end up recruiting a couple of people to [00:25:00] murder the husband.

So this sounds terrible, right? But when I explain, not as a justification, but just as a, a, let’s get some social context here. She probably would’ve been hanged if. There was this declaration that, and, and if she had to admit certainly that she had had an affair with a 17-year-old boy and gotten pregnant.

So it was a little bit like her life versus his life. And the reason that story was interesting was that she was pregnant. She was from a political family. The government at the time, I think it was Massachusetts, made an example out of her. She said, I’m pregnant. They said, we don’t believe you. Even though three doctors said, you know, she’s pregnant, they hanged her anyway.

And she said, before you hang me or after you hang me, do an autopsy and find out. And she had a six month old in her stomach. And so when I explain it like that. Yeah. This is not like the wanton woman who, you know, yes, she made a mistake, of [00:26:00] course, but let’s put it into context. You know? What would it be like to be a 19-year-old woman who is married to a 50 something year old man, probably involuntarily in this time period?

Oh yeah. Most likely. So it’s never a justification, but it needs, there needs to be an explanation. Yeah. Also with Killers, we need to provide an explanation while at the same time saying people do experience horrific abuse and see awful things when they’re young and they don’t turn into sexual sadist and serial killers.

But if you’re looking for an explanation, there’s. Part of it.

Laurie Gallardo: When we come back, Kate talks about the importance of looking at the circumstances and some of the more positive things that have come out of true crime. Stay tuned.[00:27:00]

Welcome back to SPF 1000 Vampire Sunscreen and my conversation with Kate Winkler Dawson. The digging for the explanation. And I say digging because to me, when I talk about research, it is digging, but, but I will, I would

Kate Winkler Dawson: say sometimes people are just assholes. Sure. They just are, and they’re not good people and they’re mad and it doesn’t matter what they’re mad about and things happen.

So people are obsessed with that. What happened with this? You know, why did this person, why would Bundy do this? Well, he had psychopathy. I mean, it’s, it’s pretty much proven and psychopathy isn’t Yeah. You, you can have a perfect childhood and you can have an nothing happen. Yeah. You can also develop it.

Yeah. Based on circumstances, so, so I think, you know, I’m less interested in figuring out. What happened to these people to make them kind of go wrong [00:28:00] and more interested in figuring out what were the circumstances that led to this? And not Monday morning quarterbacking, where if I were saying, you know, I would never have married that guy or I, I would’ve never gone down that dark alley.

I never do things like that. I think that people do, but I usually think a little bit more like, what were the circumstances? What were her life circumstances that. Made her vulnerable.

Laurie Gallardo: I prefer that I tend to go that way, but I’ve also said and and mostly to myself. Ours is not always to know why. It used to drive me insane, Kate.

It used to drive me to the brink, like, what do you mean? And I would keep asking, but, but, but, and I had to tap on the brakes. It didn’t do anything. It didn’t help out. And this, this could be in your personal life, this could be in your investigating. Ours is not always to know why.

Kate Winkler Dawson: Well, I mean, if you’ve read anything about Jeffrey Dahmer, he said, when I die, please look at [00:29:00] my brain.

He doesn’t know why. If you, if, if you’ve got a killer who doesn’t understand why they’re doing stuff, how can we understand, you know, when they did an autopsy? With Charles Whitman, the tower shooter, and I can’t remember what they found. Well, first of all, he probably had PTSD from his time in the military.

But also, you know, I think he had a brain tumor. It, there was some abnormality with his brain. And so, uh, and the same thing, we talk about that with a Aaron Hernandez, you know, looking at the CTE from playing football for so long, those are not justifications for what these people did. No, no, of course not.

There’s a little bit more context for why people behave. I, I’ll tell you this because I, I wish this was somebody you could have a guest, uh, as a guest. There’s a woman man now I can’t remember her name, who wrote a book, and it just came out and it’s about how this section of the northwest, kind of the Seattle, Washington area has created, has just sort of [00:30:00] spurted out.

Really well known serial killers. So Bundy, you know, the Green River Killer at one point, Dennis Rader, BTK lived there and the amount of pollution. That we’re in these states, in this area, particularly in that time period. I think a lot of people are convinced, contributed to that because they have shown that excessive amounts of pollution can cause aggression at the minimum in animal testing and stuff.

So there’s another thing, you know, we’re always looking for that explanation. I’ve never heard that before. But I, same. But I really, but I thought it was, I interviewed her and I thought it was, it was fascinating to talk to her about it.

Laurie Gallardo: As I wrap this up, Kate, before we finish, this is another thing that I do with [00:31:00] every one of my guests. The tables have turned and now. You get to ask me a question, but make it count. It can’t be what’s my favorite color or what I like to eat. Do you want me to ask, what’s your favorite murder? Oh, no, please.

No, no. Just, oh, all kinds of wrong, but, uh, ask me any question. Make it count.

Kate Winkler Dawson: Okay. What was the situation where you. Were most scared in that you felt like there actually could be physical harm, whether it’s a car accident or, you know. Mine is walking from a interview I did in Scottsdale, Arizona, which is a lovely place, but I ended a dinner and they said, do you wanna call a cabin?

I said, no. And my hotel was probably six or seven blocks away, but it was desolate and there were all kinds of people. Driving around and I, that was the first time I lived in New York, I mean in the village. So this was the first time I had actually felt like I [00:32:00] could get snatched and nobody will know about it.

So what about you?

Laurie Gallardo: I think as I’ve gotten older, that’s when I’ve become a little more hyper aware. Almost to a point where I may not even want to go walking and I do tend to get a ride to go to my car. So this is a terrible question to ask you. No, I think this is a very important question. I think you have an excellent question.

I was in my twenties in El Paso, Texas. It is funny because I was just talking about this earlier with a colleague of mine. I worked for the evening newspaper, the El Paso Herald Post, and I was not. A very good news reporter. I tended to do much better in feature stories and arts and entertainment. That was just my thing.

I didn’t understand at the time that it wasn’t a fault. It’s just those were my interests. But when they tried to get [00:33:00] me on news reporting, I went with my coworker. To the home of this gentleman who had been accused of murdering his wife. They were having difficulty proving anything. It was just a lot of stuff that wasn’t really solid evidence at the same time.

It was ridiculous. It was so suspicious. The circumstances. And they said, well, you’re gonna go with our reporter to this guy’s house. And she was one of these great individuals who was like, fine with me. All right, let’s go. I’ve got these questions and we’re gonna, you know, I’ll take Lori with me. And I said, how do you feel about this?

She was wearing heels. Okay. Just so you know. She’s like, well, look, we’re gonna be fine. I’ve done this before. Let me ask,

Kate Winkler Dawson: are you critical of the heels? Because No,

Laurie Gallardo: no, no.

Kate Winkler Dawson: Be no, because she can’t run very fast if this guy turns

Laurie Gallardo: on you guys. Oh, no. What I’m saying is I thought I would want to be relaxed. Okay.[00:34:00]

No criticism. I have seen people in heels that could run and it makes no difference where I, I would be falling myself, but that isn’t what struck me about her wearing heels. She wore her heels because this, this is me. This is how I am, this is how I do. By the time we get to this house, it looks so unassuming.

It’s in a nice little neighborhood. I was shaking. I didn’t direct this toward me, and it wasn’t the husband who frightened me. It was his son. His son answered the door and began to scream at the reporter at the person I was with. Loudly. Now, I myself have also been in situations where I’m in a parking lot.

I am in a building by myself. That’s scary enough. You’re looking over your shoulder. You may feel your heart beating in your neck. I [00:35:00] know those feelings. I, I’ve had times where I did rush to my car, or I’m shining lights everywhere, and, uh, I’m happy to say the, the laugh was on me. You know that everything turned out okay.

I’m here to tell you my story. But that, I don’t know why that crawled under my skin the way it did, but it was so unnerving and she was, she was unfazed. As a matter of fact, I, I wondered if, if she was even expecting that and the husband came out and said, no, no, no, no. You know what? It’s fine. I’m going to talk to the young lady.

And I just stayed. I stayed back. I let her do her thing. But I wanted to crawl back into her car and die. I felt sick to my stomach. I don’t know why it hit me so much. It was a combination though of that kind of reporting to me has never been accessible. I’ve never been good at that. I am not confrontational that way.

Maybe I’ve gotten a little more confrontational [00:36:00] now that I’m older for all the wrong reasons, but. Yeah. That was so terrifying to me, and, and I kept thinking back, what did you think was gonna happen that, what was gonna come out? And, well, maybe, maybe, I did think that it was awful. That was a real, real feeling.

Oh, no. Anything could happen right now. Did you go in the house? Did you? No, absolutely not. Yeah, I was gonna say, I hope he had a porch. We were out in the front, and like I said, it was such a quiet neighborhood. Doesn’t that sound like a typical story? Oh, Kate, it was such a quiet neighborhood. Nothing ever happened there.

Mm-hmm. Sounds like Gogo beaches, neighborhood. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Looking back, I still don’t think that it was ridiculous of me to feel that way. I was genuinely terrified though. And again, I, I keep asking the same old questions. Is it because you had this knowledge? He’s been accused of X, Y, Z? Sure. Did you think, oh no, [00:37:00] maybe this son was you.

And especially the way he reacted when, uh, the reporter knocked on the door, but I just remember shaking and when we left, I don’t even remember leaving. I remember we got back to the newspaper and I just, I did, yeah. I just wanted to go home. That was terrifying, I would say for sure. News was not for you?

Not at all. Not at all. That I was not cut out for it. I was not cut out for that. But I do admire the people who can and who do, and especially those who do tackle that with a lot of empathy. I think that makes the story. I don’t think it makes it fluffy. I think when you have empathy makes a world of difference.

Yeah, absolutely.

Kate Winkler Dawson: Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of good stuff comes out of true crime. There’s a lot of advocacy. You know, John Walsh and his background with losing his son, he started America’s Most [00:38:00] Wanted. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I work with the National Center for Victims of Crime, and they were started by, uh, you know, the family who had lost their mother to, to what they think was, you know, their father murdering her from a very famous case.

The von uh, I would say it wrong. I think it’s Von Buelow. The Sunny Von Belo case. Mm-hmm. And they started the, the organization. So that organization has helped so many people, including educating content creators and you know, people who consume how to be responsible. So I think also looking for the good.

The positive that comes out of it. There can be a lot of that. And really just that woman messaging me and saying that the story of someone who was being abused by her husband from 1843 moved to her enough to say, okay, I’ve had enough. In like 20 21, 20 22. That shows me what the power of these stories.

It doesn’t have to do [00:39:00] with the time period. It’s the people, and you have to figure out how to bring those people to life, and it’s been wonderful for me.

Laurie Gallardo: Thanks very much to Kate Winkler Dawson for this in-depth and fascinating conversation. I highly recommend the podcasts. Tenfold, more wicked, wicked words. And of course, buried bones and Kate’s books, including all that is Wicked and the aforementioned the sinners all bow. Your Vampire sunscreen, host and creator is me.

Yours truly, Lori Gallo. Editing and mixing by Jack Anderson Original music composed by Renee Chavez, graphic design by Dave McClinton. Very special thanks to our engineer and producer, tou Thomas. And thank you to our fearless podcast leader, Elizabeth McQueen. SPF 1000 Vampire Sunscreen is a listener supported production of KUT and KUTX studios in Austin, [00:40:00] Texas.

And if you like what you’re hearing, you can support our work at supportthispodcast.org. Please make sure to leave us a rating or review wherever you listen. And now something to keep in mind. We search for the light, but behold the darkness. Until next time.

This transcript was transcribed by AI, and lightly edited by a human. Accuracy may vary. This text may be revised in the future.