In Black America

Elizabeth McQueen: If you’re a podcaster or you wanna learn more about podcasting, then you are invited to the K-U-T-K-U-T-X Studios Podcast Meetup on Wednesday, November 5th, from six to 8:00 PM at K UT Public Media Studios. You’ll get a tour of the station and a short presentation about what we’re up to here, but mostly this is about meeting other Austin area podcasters.

There’s gonna be free pizza and drinks, and you can r RSVP and find out more@kut.org slash. Podcast.

John L. Hanson Jr.: From the University of Texas at Austin. KUT Radio. This is in black America.

Vanessa P. Daniels: Well, John, I have been working in. Social justice spaces for almost 30 years. It was 30 years ago that I ran my very first organizing campaign as a high school student in Seattle, Washington for ethnic studies. And um, so I have had the privilege of working in many different kinds of movements from labor unions to, to LGBT rights, to reproductive justice, to um, immigrant rights.

And I want our communities and I want our movements to win. And I am very clear that there is no movement that is. Worth its salt that is serious about winning, but benches. Its MVPs for no good reason, particularly in the clutch moment of a big game. And we are in the fight of our lives in this moment against fascism in this country.

We absolutely need our full strength as movements, and much of that strength comes from our best and brightest leaders, so many of whom are women of color.

John L. Hanson Jr.: Vanessa Daniels social justice activist and organizer and author of Un Rigged the Game, what Women of Color Can Teach Everyone about Winning Published by Random House in this country.

Many of the most significant social justice and environmental victories of our time have been spearheaded by women of color leaders. African American women founded Black Lives Matter, me Too, and the US Reproductive Justice Movement. Three of the most influential social change efforts in decades as a former community and union organizer who started one of the largest foundations to resource women of color led organizing.

Daniels dragged on candidate interviews with 47 prominent women of color movement leaders. She also brings to the book Her Own Experience at the ham of an organization to offer an on the ground perspective of obstacles leaders face. I’m Johnny O. Hanson Jr. And welcome to another edition of In Black America.

On this week’s program, un rigged the Game. What Women of Color Can Teach Everyone about Winning with Vanessa Daniel in Black America.

Vanessa P. Daniels: You know, in the book I have something called the Job Description, which lists, it’s the long list of things that women of color leaders. Are expected to do and put up with in movement, right?

Uh, that is driving a lot of people outta leadership. But you know, the top five that I emphasize the most are, uh, the top five things that are benching us. One is the invitation onto a glass cliff. So to lead an organization in crisis, see this all the time of women of color being brought in when an organization is in a free fall.

And then expect it to either work our black or brown girl magic to save it or take the fall for somebody else’s mess. This also by the way, looks like Kamala Harris being asked to mount a campaign with less time than any other candidate. The number two thing that benches us is the assumption of incompetence, which causes us to work four times as hard to be seen as half as credible, and that weathers our health, uh, our mental and physical and spiritual health and wellbeing.

John L. Hanson Jr.: For 25 years, Vanessa Daniels worked in social justice movements as a labor and community organizer and funder. She founded and served for 17 years as Executive director of Groundswell Fund. A living funder of women of color led grassroots organizing. In her book, I’m Rigged The Game. Daniel offered guidance on the leadership needed to tackle the social and economic problems of the future.

Women of color has repeatedly demonstrated how essential they are in the battle for social and environmental change from the streets to the ballot box to Congress. No other demographic group in this nation stands up more strongly against hate and more clearly for freedom, climate action, and human rights, and the fight for democracy, justice, and the environment.

The book declares women of color are leading on every count. Despite ample proof that women of color are effective leaders, Daniel argued that they are unutilized in social movement work and often lack full support barriers to movement. And those working in them harm all races and genders, but exactly, and especially harsh toll on women of color leaders in black America.

Spoke with Vanessa Daniel,

Vanessa P. Daniels: I come, well, I was born in Chicago, but raised in Seattle, Washington in the. Eighties and nineties and, uh, grew up in that city as a half Sri Lankan and half white kid, uh, in, in that era of time. And was really influenced by just the experience of growing up in that particular brand of racism in the northwest, uh, uh, to, to go into social justice work.

And so that’s where I hail from. Lived all over the country, but back here now in the Pacific Northwest in Tacoma, Washington,

John L. Hanson Jr.: it seems that a lot of people that I speak with have some type of connection to Austin, Texas. Talk to us about your connection.

Vanessa P. Daniels: I don’t have a direct connection to Austin, Texas, but um, I.

Of course have have funded different groups in the state of Texas over the years. My background is as a community and labor organizer, and uh, then I spent about 20 years running a foundation called Groundswell Fund, which. Funded community organizing, particularly work led by women of color and L-G-B-T-Q, people of color throughout the United States across every major social justice movement.

And that definitely included some groups in, in the great state of Texas and a lot of respect and admiration for those who are working for social justice and for racial and gender justice in, uh, states like Texas and throughout the south because. As the south goes, so does the rest of the country. So a lot of appreciation and respect for the work that goes on there.

John L. Hanson Jr.: Well, that’s what I was alluding to. Obviously some women had given you courage to do what you do that were based here in Austin, Texas. That’s what I was, uh, particularly referring to.

Vanessa P. Daniels: Yeah. I I think that the, the people who I have supported in, in Austin, Texas, like the national, uh, Latina. Institute, um, for reproductive justice and other groups have been really, really critical to, to the, to the work nationally.

And, you know, it’s been a privilege to, to be in communication with the black women’s round table and to support black voters matter and groups that work in states like Texas and, and throughout the South

John L. Hanson Jr.: give us that, uh, background about groundswell.

Vanessa P. Daniels: Sure. Well, when I finished about a decade of work as a community and a labor organizer, I came into philanthropy as a community fellow, which back in the early two thousands was one of the only ways that people who have worked on the ground with communities could come into philanthropy.

And, um, I was introduced to the reproductive justice movement, which at the time was 15 years old and started by black women like Loretta Ross, the, the Great Loretta Ross and, um, was very inspired to. Crosswalk by organizing skills into organizing resources for this movement. So, um, ended up raising resources and groundswell evolved to become one of the largest funders of women of color led or organizing both electoral and just community-based organizing across the country.

And, you know, it is, we moved a hundred million dollars to over 200 organizations across the country, and it was a unique model in that. The majority of people who held the decision making power from our board of directors to our senior staff. All the way on down were women of color who came out of the organizing sector, who came out of working on the ground in our communities, and, um, was very proud to have a board of directors that had a executive committee that was predominantly black women who, um, were leaders in, in different movements for black liberation.

And, um, that was really, really important to me. As a non-black woman of color to, to really invite and receive and, and honor that kind of guidance, that kind of political clarity and moral clarity and the guidance of our strategy. So that was the work of Groundswell. I, I ran it for, I founded it and ran it for 17 years.

And, um, it was one of the inspirations for this book that I just wrote.

John L. Hanson Jr.: What are some of the other organizations that you serve on as on the board?

Vanessa P. Daniels: Oh, that I currently serve on? Yes. Um, I currently have the privilege of serving as co-chair of the national L-G-B-T-Q Task Force. Mm-hmm. And, um, I’m on the advisory boards of the.

Environmental Justice resource collective of the Ali Foundation, which is a group of eight women of color who just finished advising about 75 million to go to mostly women of color led work in the climate justice space. I have the privilege of serving on the brain trust of the Democracy Frontline Fund, which supports black led organizing across this country and, um, among other, among other endeavors.

So it’s, it’s an honor to be able to. Serving a volunteer capacity in many of these

John L. Hanson Jr.: and reading your work, it seems like this is an autobiography, somewhat therapeutic. What led you to, to take on this undertaking?

Vanessa P. Daniels: Well, uh, John, I have been working in social justice spaces for almost 30 years. It was 30 years ago.

Then I ran my very first organizing campaign as a high school student in Seattle, Washington for ethnic studies and. Um, so I have had the privilege of working in many different kinds of movements from labor unions to, to LGBT rights, to reproductive justice, to um, immigrant rights, and. I want our communities and I want our movements to win.

And I am very clear that there is no movement that is worth its salt that is serious about winning that benches. Its MVPs for no good reason, particularly in the clutch moment of a big game. And we are in the fight of our lives in this moment against fascism in this country. We absolutely need our full strength as movements and.

Much of that strength comes from our best and brightest leaders, so many of whom are women of color. I know I don’t need to tell you. And this program and where you’re located, that you know, women of color and black women in particular have been the backbone of movements in this country, and yet we have never had.

A serious conversation in the public square about how much our movements could be winning if we truly valued the strategic brilliance that they’re bringing. And if we stopped making leadership positions so treacherous for them. So my inspiration was I wanted to write a book that would really. Help draw people’s attention to the superpowers that they bring to movements.

And I emphasize three in particular. And then also to the barriers that we can all be aware of and lift to help them do their work better. When they win, we all win. And you know, these are very difficult times and I came out of this process of interviewing almost 50 prominent women of color movement leaders for this book, feeling very hopeful and feeling very.

Inspired about our ability to win, and I think that that is something that we all need in these times. It is so demoralizing as we turn on the news every day. It is, you know, it. It is so, um, fear inducing what we’re seeing happening to our country every day. It is another terrible story. And so this book that has winning in the title and that reminds us that we can win and reminds us that we have an embarrassment of riches right under our nose in these leaders that we can unlock to help us meet this moment.

Is, I hope, something that is going to leave folks inspired. And that’s a lot of the feedback that I’ve been getting on the book tour, uh, on the road is that people feel renewed and inspired by reading this and, and, um, in the work they’re doing to continue forth, continue building on the work of our ancestors and this critical moment in this country,

John L. Hanson Jr.: I guess the elephant in the room, how is the game being rigged in your opinion?

Vanessa P. Daniels: Yeah, well. You know, in the book I have something called the job description, which lists, it’s the long list of things that women of color leaders are expected to do and put up with in movement, right? Uh, that is driving a lot of people outta leadership. But you know, the top five that I emphasize the most are, uh, the top five things that are benching us.

One is the invitation onto a glass cliff. So to lead an organization in crisis. And see this all the time of women of color being brought in when an organization is in a free fall and then expected to either work our black or brown girl magic to save it or take the fall for somebody else’s mess. This also, by the way, looks like Kamala Harris being asked to mount a campaign with less time than any other candidate.

Uh, the, the number two thing that benches us is the assumption of incompetence, which causes us to work four times as hard to be seen as half as credible. And that weathers our health, uh, our mental and physical and spiritual health and wellbeing. And it wastes a lot of time and, and drains our energy. Uh, the, the.

Leaders that I talked to, um, I’ll give an example of an incredible, uh, black woman organizer, Gloria Walton, who’s nationally recognized. She now leads the Solutions Project, but talked about working for 13 years without a real vacation until she ended up in the ER with chest pain and so many stories that I heard from leaders.

Similar to this about the overwork and the toll on people’s physical health that it is taking to, to meet these unreasonable demands and to overcome the assumption of incompetence. The number three reason is the expectation to mother and mammy, and this was by far the biggest pain point that I heard talking to leaders, and this is the.

Being cast as mean or aggressive or normal levels of assertiveness that would be accepted from any other leader. It’s being told you’re cold or unfeeling. Anytime you say no, it is the expectation that you not just create an organizational environment that is. Uh, fair and sustainable, but that you create a utopia where no one ever feels a discomfort or a trigger.

And then the punishment that is often meted out against you in the public square. If you don’t deliver on this impossible standard, it is the expectation that you perform. Uh. Degree of vulnerability in order to make people less comfortable with the specter of a woman of color fully standing in her power.

And I will say that I heard more from black women than from any other group that you know, this, this, this constant and tiresome accusation of being aggressive or abrasive or mean for. Just normal levels of, of clarity of speaking with clarity, folks saying that they feel afraid of leaders when, you know, all leaders did, was have a normal conversation and state their opinion.

Um, this kind of, uh, stereotype and expectation really, really, really weathers people. The, the fourth is this. Is being given zero margin for error. And we all saw this happen with Claudine Gay at Harvard. You know, the ear error does not need to be real. It can just be perceived. And then the last is when you’re attacked, you’re abandoned.

And we saw this, for example, with the leaders of the original Women’s March. There were four of them, but only the three who were women of color were singled out for attack ads from the NRA that incited people to threaten their lives. And they were also dragged across the internet, behind all these false accusations and rumors.

And no one would return their calls in movement or, you know, very few people stepped in there with them to flank them. People treated them like they were radioactive and just stepped away. Then a year later, the story broke by the New York Times, that it was Russian bots that were behind that as an attempt to cleave the women’s movement, which because people abandoned them, they were successful at at in that period of time.

So these are just the top five things that very universally are benching so many women of color leaders. And, um, you know, I bring those up because they’re universal. But of course I have a section of the book that’s called We Are Not a Monolith because of course there are ways that people come for the next of black women leaders that are different than the ways they come for the next of Asian women, Arab women, Latinas, and so on and so forth.

So, um, that is important too. But these are the top five that I heard from nearly everyone that I talked to.

John L. Hanson Jr.: This is in Black America. We’ll be back with more of our conversation in a moment.

Elizabeth McQueen: If you’re a podcaster or you wanna learn more about podcasting, then you are invited to the K-U-T-K-U-T-X Studios Podcast Meetup on Wednesday, November 5th, from six to 8:00 PM at K UT Public Media Studios.

You’ll get a tour of the station and a short presentation about what we’re up to here, but mostly this is about meeting other Austin area podcasters. There’s gonna be free pizza and drinks, and you can RSVP and find out more@kut.org. Slash podcast

John L. Hanson Jr.: if you’re just joining us, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. And you’re listening to In Black America, from K UT Radio and speaking with Vanessa Daniel, social justice activist, organized, and author of Un Rigged The Game, how Women of Color Can Teach Everyone About Winning.

Ms. Daniel, obviously the 40 women that you spoke with for this work was. During your lifetime and during your generation, are there other women that you see on the horizon that’s gonna pick up that manner than which you all have carried for such a long time?

Vanessa P. Daniels: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think that. There is a rich legacy, um, that, that my generation, and I’m 47 years old, we are building on, and I did get to interview some of my movement elders like Dolores Huerta, who co-founded the Farm Workers Union alongside Cesar Chavez.

You know, I sat down and had conversations with elders like my mentor, Aisa Douglas and her late great partner, Dr. Bernice Johnson, Reagan. Who of course, were, um, luminaries as part of the civil rights struggle. And my generation, I think we have, we have built on that. So talking to folks like Ashley Woodard Henderson, and, uh, Latasha Brown and Linda Sarsour, an incredible national leaders, but young ones coming up.

You know, I spoke with, you know. Grace and Mar Martinez, um, who runs United. We dream, you know, incredible leader parti and so important her work, particularly this this moment when immigrant rights are so heavily under attack. But I think that there is, we have just in incredible backbone and bravery coming up from the younger generation as well, that we have seen across the board from folks who played an instrumental role in.

Organizing the uprisings, following the murder of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, to people who have been working on the climate justice front to folks who are, you know, working to fight for the rights of our immigrant communities in this moment. So, yes, absolutely. It, it, it is a multi-generational reflection in this book on.

On the work and also on, you know, for my generation, how we wanna leave these positions better and less broken. For the women of color who are coming up behind us, we want exponentially less nonsense in their way so that they can actually have a clear runway from which to take flight and their, in their leadership and.

Uh, support the, the work we’re we’re gonna do. I firmly believe that there’s not a single major social justice movement in this country that is going to be able to win at scale without, without getting our. Our foot off the neck of women of color leaders, we absolutely need their leadership in order to win at scale in this moment and in the future.

And so this book is not an addendum to the moment, is an imperative to it.

John L. Hanson Jr.: And speaking with these, these women, were there any particular thread in which they articulated that led them to become involved in, in, in, in activism?

Vanessa P. Daniels: Yeah. I mean, I, I think that. Every single woman of color in this country shares the experience of battling this three-headed monster of extractive capitalism and sexism, and racism.

And you know, these leaders responded to that experience in their own lives by deciding to go into movement. Because, you know, there are people in every population who, you know, really answer the call to respond to the, the pain and suffering they’ve experienced and that they’ve seen the women in their lives experience by taking action to transform the world so that other people don’t have to experience that to the same degree.

And I think it’s incredibly important in this moment we’re in, because what fascism essentially is, is it, is that three-headed monster. That is the worst of the history of this country on steroids. And so women of color who have been battling it, you know, for hundreds of years for our very survival in the United States, actually have something to teach about America, about, about how to fight.

And we can look across and around the globe and see that the path to fascism has always been paved with the eroded rights of three groups, women, LGBT people. And oppressed racial and ethnic groups. And every single woman of color in this country is a member of at least two of those groups. And many of us who identify as queer, uh, in movement belong to all three.

And so we are under very few illusions that the way. Through this moment is by keeping our heads down and following orders. We are highly motivated to fight and I think that fight is something that we see in the leaders in this book, and we see it in, you know, where the backbone is showing up. Even in the Democratic party.

When we look at a Jasmine Crockett, when we look at an A OC, when we look at a Barbara Lee, you know, this is the kind of fight that we all need to be. Inspired by that we all need to relight our torch on daily so that we can keep that fire in our belly. To remember to be brave in this moment and to not capitulate, to timidity and to obeying in advance and to throwing vulnerable communities under the bus.

Um, we can and must meet this moment.

John L. Hanson Jr.: You talk about the silence of dynamic women of color that, uh, leaders face. Why was it important for you to break that silence?

Vanessa P. Daniels: Well, I mean, as our movement ancestor James Baldwin says, you know, nothing can be changed until it is faced. Uh, there is a real challenge to talking honestly about the silence that surrounds the treatment of women of color leaders in our movements without talking about the silence.

That’s, that is. Core to rape culture in this country. And we know that we cannot dismantle rape culture without talking about it. You know, that’s why the Me Too movement was so critical to begin to, to begin to actually confront and, and dismantle that culture and. When we see leaders like Tarana Burke, who of course coined the phrase Me Too, and was a catalyst for this work, had been in it for decades.

When we see, you know, public figures like Oprah Winfrey speaking out about this kind of abuse, that that does start to change, um, change those dynamics. And by the same token. You know, this silence where women of color leaders are talking to each other about these dynamics in the shadows and it’s never addressed in the public square, does not allow for it to change.

And we need people who are not us to actually unr the game. You know, I share in the book a story, I’ve two daughters, but my 13-year-old, I was at one of her swim meets, and there was another mother who had fallen asleep in this holding chair and she. She was so exhausted, clearly she’d fall asleep, head back, mouth open, and she had a book across her chest that said what to do when he won’t change.

And you know, my point by sharing that story is that, you know. The, the notion that, that the people who exhaust women of color movement leaders should be allowed not to change while we just study up on how to become better Jedi and navigating all this stuff is ridiculous. So we have to break the silence.

We have to start talking about it. We have to stop allowing it to be normalized so that it can actually start to change. And we have to ask people to get in there with us and to stop being bystanders too. The attacks that occur, uh, on women of color leaders,

John L. Hanson Jr.: how can average Americans support your endeavor and other women of color leaders?

Vanessa P. Daniels: Well, I think each and every person in this country, um, has an opportunity to get involved in grassroots organizing for, for systems change in their. Uh, neighborhood and in their city where they live. Um, if they wanna connect in with national efforts, I would encourage people to look up the Working Families Party, you know, to look up organizations like Black Voters Matter, get engaged and get involved.

And then when you’re in these spaces. Look for and support women of color leaders who are really doing the work and who are truly accountable to communities. Now, just like all of our skin folks aren’t our kin folks, um, not every woman of color leader is necessarily embodying the superpowers that I talk about in this book.

So it’s not about essentializing people, um, because Candace Owens and Nikki Haley, and so we know that, that not everybody is doing the work. But for the folks who are. We wanna have their back. And this book has a ton of concrete ways to do that, and I wanna encourage folks to do that because their freedom is about the liberation of all of us.

And folks can find out more about the book and about the conversation on my website, vanessa pier daniel.com. Um, I’m also on, you know, all the socials, Vanessa, Priya, Daniel, uh, um, under that same, under that same name. So look forward to being in conversation with folks. Yeah, there are many, many ways to, to get involved and be in solidarity with each other.

In this moment, divide and conquer is how they win. Solidarity is our only path through this.

John L. Hanson Jr.: One final question, Ms. Daniel, you are on tour or just got off tour. How has it been and and what has been the response thus far?

Vanessa P. Daniels: Uh, the response has been overwhelming. I just completed a 10 city tour. We were sold out in more than half of the cities.

Um, people are so hungry to have this conversation. And you know, and I think just excited to be in community with one another. We need each other in these times.

John L. Hanson Jr.: Vanessa Daniel, social justice activist and organizer and author of Unrig The Game, What Women of Color can Teach Everyone about Winning. If you have questions, comments, or suggestions as the future in Black America program.

Email us at in Black america@kut.org. Also, let us know what radio station your heard is over. Don’t forget, subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook and X. You can hear previous programs online@kut.org. Also, you can listen to a special collection of In Black America programs at American Archive of Public Broadcasting.

That’s American archives.org. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessary though of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. Until we have the opportunity again for Texaco producer David Alvarez. I’m John L. Hanson, Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week.

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John L. Hanson Jr.: In Black America and KUT Public Radio are members of the NPR network. It’s an independent coalition of public media podcasters. You can find more shows on the network wherever you get your podcasts. I’m John L. Hanson, Jr. See you tomorrow.