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Jimmy Maas and Juan Diego Garcia talk with perhaps the most accomplished Austinite in the world of soccer: Ismail Elfath, who recently retired as a professional FIFA World Cup and Major League Soccer referee. They chat about his arrival in Austin after leaving Casablanca at 18 to study, and about the communities that made him feel at home: his mosque and the soccer pitch. They also discuss his transition from arguing with referees to falling in love with refereeing, and what he’ll do now, with many years still ahead of him.
The full transcript of this episode of ¡Vamos Verde! is available on the KUT & KUTX Studio website. The transcript is also available as subtitles or captions on some podcast apps.
Jimmy Maas [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jimmy Moss. And I’m Juan Diego Garcia. Vamos Verde is one of many podcasts made at KUT Public Media. We are fully funded by our listeners and we need your help to do what we do. Help us out by donating at supportthispodcast.org or by clicking the link in the show notes.
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Jimmy Maas [00:00:54] Welcome back to Vanmos Verde, I’m Jimmy Maas.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:00:56] And I’m Juan Diego Garcia.
Jimmy Maas [00:00:58] And Juan, we have just a couple of games left in the 2026 season, seems like it just started yesterday and yet here we are knocking on Halloween’s door with the season almost over. And results.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:01:11] Downright spooky right now.
Jimmy Maas [00:01:13] Yeah, and I will say Austin’s playing pretty decent, entertaining football, and they will probably end up somewhere close to where they’ve been in the worst years. What that is looking like on the field and on tape seems totally different than what that may be as far as the standings go.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:01:31] You know, after getting rid of the coach and sporting director, I feel like, you actually mentioned it this way, they’re playing with house money, right? The real test is 2027, new coach, new sporting director potentially a slightly revamped roster. On the bright side of things, even if results and potential playoff hopes are not really going their way, some of their best players are starting to get hot. Mirtuzuni just scored a brace against Kansas City. Brandon Vazquez has been on a bit of a tear. Christian Ramirez has been an on a bit of tear.
Jimmy Maas [00:02:05] Plus new contract now. So he’s been taken care of. So yeah, there’s a whole lot to look forward to for the sprint, probably even more as far as moves and roster configuration in the summer between the sprint season and the 20, 27, 28 season. But if things hold to form, there could be a lot to cheer.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:02:27] On next year. You know, Jimmy, I just thought about a slight gripe that I have with the move to fall to spring. It’s been so easy to refer to MLS seasons by the year that they’re in. And now we’re gonna get a weird confusing thing. Cause if you say the 2027 season, it could be the 20 27 sprint. It could be this 27 28 season. And now you can’t say like, oh yeah, the 2022 season or the 2023 season. Now you have to be like, yeah, the 20, 27, 28 season, which just feels like. I don’t know, like you’re stuttering.
Jimmy Maas [00:02:59] I’m just going to call it fiscal years.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:03:01] I like that. Yeah. Fiscal year 28. Yes. Okay. So Austin FC wins the title fiscal year 28 Yeah.
Jimmy Maas [00:03:09] And for all of you who are on economic calendars, you know exactly what I’m talking about.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:03:14] All right, so I mean, this feels like very normal for you. I mean you celebrate New Year’s in August.
Jimmy Maas [00:03:20] Exactly, August 31st, New Year is Eve. Can’t wait
Juan Diego Garcia [00:03:24] Don’t forget to kiss your partner at midnight.
Jimmy Maas [00:03:27] Speaking of the end of the year, and endings to eras, Ismail El-Fath reffed his last major league soccer game. We did not realize it at the time, but he also happened to this season, or this summer, ref his last FIFA World Cup game. It’s not all that common for major league soccer refs to referee significant World Cup games, like the semifinal or the final. It’s certainly even less common for referees from Austin to referee. How many times can I see a referee in this? I don’t know, but I’ve been taking shots and I’m trashed. Our guest of the show is a recent retiree at the ripe old age of 44. This male, Elphath, recently retired after two decades.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:04:16] Has a professional referee. Jimmy, he didn’t start reffing at the pro level until the early 2010s. So it’s really more a decade and a half.
Jimmy Maas [00:04:24] Okay, but counting his days, refing rec league, youth soccer, ECNL, UIL, USL, all the alphabet there that all seem to end in L for whatever reason.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:04:36] Still not exactly pro level refereeing.
Jimmy Maas [00:04:39] Listen, if you’re paid, you’re a pro, okay? Technically that’s true. What’s important is that he spent the last decade refereeing at the international level, the highest level you can be.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:04:50] I’ll give you that. And his record does include games at some of the most prestigious and exciting tournaments on the planet.
Jimmy Maas [00:04:57] Like, Copa America!
Juan Diego Garcia [00:04:59] Yes, but not the one I had in mind.
Jimmy Maas [00:05:01] Club World Cup?
Juan Diego Garcia [00:05:02] He also officiated in that one too, but you’re getting both closer and farther than what I meant.
Jimmy Maas [00:05:08] Oh, you mean, CONCACAF Champions Cup?
Juan Diego Garcia [00:05:12] No. I’m talking about the World Cup. You know what I mean. The… World Cup, right?
TV sound [00:05:18] A final with historic proportions as England take on Argentina. And oh, by the way, you have a historic moment with an all-American on-field officiating crew.
TV sound [00:05:31] And it’s their job to navigate it. This is my old fat, the American referee, setting the tone early, by the way, calling that foul and having some conversation.
Jimmy Maas [00:05:37] Kept some of the sport’s biggest stars in line. People like Harry Kane killing Mbappe and a certain Argentine attacker who is kind of a big deal.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:05:47] Obviously, you mean Lionel Messi?
Jimmy Maas [00:05:50] How I was talking about Enzo Fernandez?
Juan Diego Garcia [00:05:52] I’m not even going to acknowledge that with a response. What I am going to do is introduce our guest today, the recently retired, former professional referee, Ismael Alfa.
Jimmy Maas [00:06:04] You have a fascinating history, but I wanna get to this first. You’re still a relatively young man. I mean, you’re not as old as me and you’re as young as Juan, but yet you are retiring from the professional referee ranks. What’s going on there?
Ismail Elfath [00:06:24] Yeah, well, thanks for having me, Jimmy. Yeah, I mean, I think 44 is relatively young for referees. There’s no set age. It’s usually about your physical fitness. Usually that takes people in the professional ranks into their late 40s. You would even find some in their 50s in the English Premier League, et cetera. I retired for three reasons. Number one, I humbly believe I’ve succeeded at achieving everything I set out to achieve, having been part of a World Cup final and a semi-final, which is more than any referee has ever done before, being in those two games. I can confidently say that. The second reason is I really just want to spend more time with my family. Being a professional referee, international referee, I averaged about 150 nights in some hotel versus at my house every year for the last 10 years. And it was all worth it. And the third reason is just being able to give the game what I have set myself to give it as a standard. I don’t think I’ll be able to give it anymore given the lack of motivation and also the desire to not. You know travel as much I think those are reasons why you it’s just you you would walk away and good graces and let the option
Juan Diego Garcia [00:07:59] Leave while on top right?
Ismail Elfath [00:08:01] Oh, yeah, you can say that.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:08:03] I’m curious. There was a nice little Forbes write-up done of you and they called you a US soccer all-time great
Ismail Elfath [00:08:14] Do you agree? Um, I always leave those things to others to judge. Um, just being in the conversation is humbling to me. Um, and I think, uh, I think I’ll be satisfied with just being in a conversation, um, there’s so many people that have given so much to the game, some of them are, are not being watched by a billion people doing a semi, you know, a World Cup semi-final, but without them, I wouldn’t be here. And I’m talking about the grassroot level, people that do it for fun for free, by the way. For years, decades, they take referees and players for that matter, and they show them the way that it’s above and beyond that of a paid practitioner. So yeah, getting the conversation is quite enough for me.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:09:04] When you were refereeing at the grassroots level, was there any part of you that thought maybe a World Cup final or a World cup semi-final was potentially in the cards?
Ismail Elfath [00:09:15] Never. No, not at that stage. If you’re talking 2005, 2006, you just do it because I’m out there playing already and I’m like, why not just do a game or two, get a little extra cash. I didn’t get the competitive bug until probably about the third year or so when I saw that there’s a path to doing more. Difficult more prestigious games you would call it you know like a youth final or regional or in high school you do the 5a you know state final etc that’s when you get when i when i got that competitive bug and then uh even then i don’t think i was thinking international at all um but once i got to get feedback from some of the mentors that either a were in major league talker. Or even later on in my fourth year or so, those that have been international, then you get the encouragement of, hey, you should do X, Y, Z to go to the next level. And they’re very cautious about not, you know, giving you too much hype, which is dangerous at that stage. But you kind of read between the lines that they see something in you where you can do more. And I think that’s when I started to get the inklings of, you now, this being a goal. A World Cup target, I don’t think I got it until my third year in the league, around 2015, when I would start to be in consideration for the international badge. That’s when I started thinking, well, if I am going to go do that, then why not just go all the way and win it and do something special.
Jimmy Maas [00:10:56] For many years, you’re not doing glamorous games with Messi or Virgil van Dijk. You’re having to work your way up the ladder. I’m sure some of these were kind of interesting scenarios where maybe, I don’t know, you had to worry about where your car was parked, or fans were, you know, extra rough on you for a decision they didn’t like. Can you, can we go through some of those early days? Oh, absolutely.
Ismail Elfath [00:11:29] It’s a journey full of failures. I’ll say it because that’s where most of my growth happens. I think you can say that about any profession. Yeah, I mean, nobody, the World Cup is like the Olympics. A lot of people pay attention to it every four years. But the grind of going through the grassroot levels, and even in MLS, week in and week out, we do 34 rounds in Mls, nobody sees those things. And sometimes you have bad games. I can, to this day, they fly, as soon as I mentioned that, a couple of games flashed through my brain. They’re like, oh boy, I don’t even know if I’m gonna get another MLS game. But I think that’s what made me who I am, is just sitting down, being honest about, hey, what just happened in Dallas? What just happened into this Vancouver game? What just happen down in Panama, whatever, where I was doing the game, that it feels so bad, because you know when you have a bad game. And you just go into repair and learn mode. And I think that’s where most of my learning happened.
Jimmy Maas [00:12:37] What is a bad game for a ref in your view? Like is it just, is it a missed call or just inattentiveness to something else that you feel like you should have checked earlier in the match or what do you consider a bad match?
Ismail Elfath [00:12:51] A bad match is when you have affected the outcome of the match and it was avoidable. That to me is probably a good line to start. Of course, we can always draw conclusions about, well, no, the keeper made a mistake or that striker missed a clear goal, etc. But if you’re honest with yourself, you would judge it in a manner where, yeah, it was a zero, zero game and my penalty call was wrong, right? And I was avoidable and I couldn’t correct it. And I’m talking about pre-VAR, but even with VAR, sometimes you still get it wrong. That when you lose sleep for many, many nights, if not weeks, and those are like in my career. There’s probably two or three that I’ll never forget because to this day, they still hurt me in my core. When I know that I affected the match that I could have, uh, that was avoidable. That’s how we define it. It really comes from the same way. Why, you know, anybody that cares about what they do would feel bad.
Jimmy Maas [00:14:03] With refs, fair or unfair, there’s always a tension building as matches. Some matches go on, not all matches, but some matches go on. How do you relieve some of that? Either maybe that tension is among players and you, or maybe that is among fans. Maybe in a place where maybe I realized that you’ve not ref’d where fans have immediate access to you like you would at a recreational setting. But there’s a build up. How do you? How do you alleviate some of that tension?
Ismail Elfath [00:14:35] Great question, Jimmy. The biggest thing is, number one, is prevention. It’s smell it before it brews. Smell it before the bubble grows. And that’s what experience teaches us, is prevention, prevention, and prevention. And that looks something like that guy just looked at the other guy the wrong way. You can ignore it, or you can do something with it. Because it’s usually micro-interactions that build up. Um, the second thing blew out the, you know, to, to burst the bubble is you have to have the techniques to do so and know the moments given the small foul when you need to avoid an advantage that’s not necessary, giving that apparent soft foul, but it’s a defensive one between the two benches. Nobody cares. Everybody will forget about it in five seconds, but it will cost you a lot. If you let it go, you’ll gain a lot if you call it. So detecting, sensing those things and then executing on them, using your Sometimes it’s just letting the player breathe so that they can collect themselves before a restart. Hey, the ball is rolling. It’s not really rolling, but hey, just, you okay? Take a breather. You know, you end up doing a lot of micro-management for the players and also for some of the calls to again, like you said, Jimmy, let the game breathe a little bit. And if you don’t, if you miss it, you can see it. Like you said. Experienced fans feel it. And sometimes referees miss it. You’re watching, you’re like, oh boy, something’s gonna happen. Boom, boom, boom. Bah. And then good referees, they see it before it happens and they blow it up.
Jimmy Maas [00:16:12] I feel like the let it breathe is, I don’t know, maybe taking a page from parenting a little bit.
Ismail Elfath [00:16:18] It’s absolutely, it’s absolutely player, you know, player management is at a human level. Forget sports. Someone is frustrated. Someone’s crying in the tunnel before they walked out on the field. You know what that means? They don’t care about your card. It means nothing to them. How do you get them to trust you and breathe for the first 10, 15 minutes so that they can play football instead of hurting themselves or affecting their team or And those are the things, like you said, you do at work, at the park, at home, you’re managing a human being that’s going through an emotion. That really is what we’re doing.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:16:55] Is there a specific moment in your career that you can kind of point to where you feel like maybe if you had managed it a little bit differently on the pitch, it might have blown up into something bigger that you managed to avoid?
Ismail Elfath [00:17:10] Um, yeah, I mean, especially in CONCACAF games in Central America and the Caribbeans, um, it’s, it was what we just talked about the, there’s a lot of history between those, those clubs and nations, especially World Cup qualifying, you end up usually with the same six or eight teams, national teams that are playing each other, a lot of history and they play in generations over there. They don’t have a lot of turnover. So national team, you’ve got same 10, 15 guys, core guys, they’ll play in a national team for 10 years. And then they play each other through two or three World Cup cycles. So if you don’t study the histories and know what’s going on and you just go in there and blow the whistle, yeah, it can get really hard. I can think of a World Cup qualifier, Panama Honduras. It’s electric. The game doesn’t even start till 9 p.m. And it’s a game that needs delicate handling. All the expected, you know, let the game come to you. Don’t look for anything and talk, talk, talk all game you’re talking with players in your pocket. They need to trust you. And if you don’t do it that way and just say, Oh, I’m gonna let them play. Then you end up with something pretty difficult to rein back. So yeah, there’s a lot of these over the last 15 years that I can think about.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:18:35] You might think, oh, letting them play means, you know, you are letting the game come to you. You’re not looking for something, the way you put it. But then, it kind of sounds like just letting them plays the recipe for disaster in this case. Is there like a Goldilocks zone of calling some, making sure that you’re doing the right calls at the right time so that this doesn’t blow up into something that is now of your control.
Ismail Elfath [00:19:04] Yeah, Juan, that is the art of refereeing. That’s the difference between good, excellent, and fantastic is the heart of knowing what you’re dealing with in terms of a game. So you have to have a plan. So this is not reactive. None of this is reactive. If you are reacting to the game, you’re going to be too late. It will surprise you, and it has to me, earlier in my career. You have to a plan, so that looks something like this. Tactically, how are they going to play? Who’s gonna sit back? Who’s going to attack? What do they do when they score? Where do they, who are they gonna focus on, on the other team? You have to do your homework. That’s number one. The other part of it is individual. Every player, you have to study them. Do they have a contract? Are they fighting for one? Did they just sign one? Are they just divorced, just married? Whatever, you to study. Have they played with each other in other teams, other leagues, et cetera? You have study the players to know what you’re walking into. And with that, you come up with your game plan. Where you say, OK, for this game, I think the plan that works is X. And it could look something like, I am going to pull it very tight in the middle. I’m going to be pretty stingy around the penalty box. And I’m gonna be very, very careful and conservative with fouls coming out. It’s in the corner because there’s too much contact. If it looks like a foul, I’m to give it to come out. Versus the game where you’re like. No, I think it’s a game where it’s gonna be played up top. There’s a lot of long balls and I’m focused on area of challenges, et cetera. Everything else these guys are gonna accept. And so on and on and so you have to have your plan but what the sweet spot you’re looking for that zone that you mentioned that you’re looking for is one where the image of the game is good the flow is as good as it can be and the players trust you so that they are safe the safety of the players if you find zone that gets you these three boxes then you are in the right zone. Of course you don’t control all of it every now and then someone will do something crazy and you have to react but that’s what we’re aiming for every time image of the game safety of the players and entertainment third
Jimmy Maas [00:21:20] More great questions, as judged by a professional referee, from both Juan and me, are still to come. Stick around.
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Jimmy Maas [00:22:05] I’m looking for one story where you had to leave in disguise or we were smuggled out in a catering cart, something that just went sideways for you.
Ismail Elfath [00:22:19] I have to be honest, I really don’t have any crazy stories like that that are at least justified. But of course, if you’re talking about a World Cup game where the nation just got disqualified, you’re not going to be hanging out in the lobby having cake with your teammates. You make your way to your room, you know. You don’t look for trouble because you can sense the tension. I haven’t had any anything crazy, but
Jimmy Maas [00:22:47] I thought for sure CONCACAF experience might give you something.
Ismail Elfath [00:22:51] Yeah, for concave experiences, I mean, we have stories of all the stuff, all the preventative and cautious things organizing committees do to protect us from the moment you land. And then there’s guys with AK-47s chaperoning you from the plane to your transport to the hotel. And then you cannot leave your floor and things like that. And then on the way to the stadium, and you’re riding and there’s a guy in front of you with… Motorcycles and big guns and tapping on people’s cars and you’re like, wow, this is wild But I haven’t had any crazy scenarios after the game
Juan Diego Garcia [00:23:30] Vancouver and Portland don’t prepare you for those moments, do they?
Ismail Elfath [00:23:35] No, no, it’s different. I mean, I don’t know the rating of this show But we have pee bags thrown at us before the first whistle like people are just I Don’t know excited angry call it whatever you want to call it, but they’re hostile. They’re hostile environments that you go to them No, you don’t nobody’s throwing undesirable bags at you in Portland or Seattle
Jimmy Maas [00:24:01] They’re passionate. Let’s go back to your beginnings, at least your beginnings here in Texas. You migrated here when you were a young man, correct me if I’m wrong, 18, 19 years old?
Ismail Elfath [00:24:13] 18, yeah, 2001, January 14th.
Jimmy Maas [00:24:16] And what was the dream then?
Ismail Elfath [00:24:19] Learn English, go to UT, help my family.
Jimmy Maas [00:24:23] OK, check, check check. We did those three. But did you play soccer then? Did you have a refereeing interest? What was the, how did you kill your spare time back then?
Ismail Elfath [00:24:39] Yeah, I didn’t have any. I migrated with $200. I landed in Austin, Texas in the evening of January 14th. And then the arranged place or the person that was going to host me lived right on campus on Oasis Street. And I woke up and there’s thousands of students walking around. And all I can think about is I just want to be like them. All I wanted to do. But the road was long. Needed to learn English, needed to… I had already graduated from high school in Morocco, everything is in French and Arabic. So, had fantastic grades. Very quickly, within the first six months, I was able to attend ACC. I think all my high school credits from Morocco translated to a year of college credit. So I had a bit of a head start, then joined the of Mechanical Engineering. And then I was a full-time student and a full time. Worker. I used to work at a hotel. No, I was not thinking of refereeing, but I was looking for some familiarity and I found two places that are familiar to me. The soccer pitch, which people quickly told me about Zilker Park. It was the only place you could find soccer at the time. So within the third day I was playing some pick-up soccer at Zilkert Park. And then the mosque, which is a place of faith and refuge that was also familiar to me on Nueces Street as the campus mosque, so. Without those two places, I think I probably would have had a far more difficult period of adaptation. But to be immersed in student life immediately and some soccer was a blessing.
Jimmy Maas [00:26:18] What was it about Austin that was like, I think this is where I’m at or where I’d like to be rather than maybe go back home or whatever.
Ismail Elfath [00:26:25] There’s this imagery that I’ll never forget in this feeling. I come from, I was born and raised in Casablanca, Morocco, a really, the true urban bustling Metro, you know, like loud vendors, sellers, cars, motorcycles, everything happening. And then when I woke up in Nueces Street that morning, it was so quiet. I was like, where is everybody? I told the students, my jet lag got fixed and I saw the students like, okay, there’s some life into this place. I’ve been to, it’s funny because my team and I were doing the tally of all the countries we’ve been to for soccer. We’ve been over 30 countries and then obviously within that and then within the US with Major League Soccer, I don’t know, 40, 50 different cities. I wouldn’t live anywhere else but Austin. I love the people. I love the university vibe. That was great. I think it’s great. And keep in mind that we’re talking about 2001. And very quickly, a few months after I arrived was 9-11. And if I was going to feel anything bad, I would have felt it then. But I will never forget that at the M.A.A.’s. There were dozens and dozens of bouquets of flowers of support from our neighborhood there, saying, we know you, this is a difficult moment, we’re gonna get to it together, versus anything discriminatory or hate, which I know is happening all over the place. That’s when I know that no matter what I see on TV or hear, that there’s good inside, absolutely, there’s a good around. So that was a wake-up call for a kid that just landed. But back to soccer, yeah, you go to Zilker Park and immediately you’re home, regardless of whether you know English or not, or you’re playing with the Hispanic or Caucasian person or African-American or whatever. You’re just playing soccer. And that was amazing to me.
Jimmy Maas [00:28:40] Those experiences, did you elevate from there into refereeing? Is that what you were like, well, these silker games are out of hand. I just need to, they need some control. I’m gonna start waving a flag and pointing to the spot.
Ismail Elfath [00:28:56] Yeah, within about a year or so, couple of years, 2003 or so I think I started playing in Austin Men’s Soccer Association at the time, AMSA. I think, I think only caught one or two seasons where we’re still playing at Zilker and then everything shifted to Northeast Metro, Southeast Metro and then later on Onion Creek. And I think that’s where I started to get that I’m competitive, so I complained. I complained a lot. I’m a striker, I’m six foot four, I am 200 pounds, I got kicked around, I kick people around. But I felt I was kicked around a little bit more, so I always complained.
Jimmy Maas [00:29:35] So are you suggesting that you were complaining to the referee quite a bit? Is that what I’m hearing?
Ismail Elfath [00:29:41] To the referee, my engineering brain tells me to go and break it down for the referee a signer that’s on the side, tell them here’s everything that went wrong with the referee. And that’s when they told me you just you just sound like you should be refereed. And I’m like, whatever. And I walk off. But that happened for probably a season or until one day I took him up on it.
Jimmy Maas [00:30:00] Wow, so that’s funny. This actually came from, not confident, that’s too strong a word, but direct conflict with someone in your position.
Ismail Elfath [00:30:14] Yeah, the joke now when I meet my colleagues, my friends, referees back then that were refereeing when I was playing and they would say that whenever they needed an assessment to upgrade from one level of grade refereeing to the other and they needed a good game to be assessed on, they picked the game that I was playin’ on. So I’ll take pride in that.
Jimmy Maas [00:30:33] Also, I would say that sort of flies in the face of your professional reputation as being kind of the diplomat, or at least calm, I wouldn’t say maybe it’s always diplomatic, but at least you’re calm out there, at least, you appear so. Maybe under the breath, maybe when we cover our mouth, I don’t know, other things are coming out, but you appear calm.
Ismail Elfath [00:30:57] That is what everybody will tell you, but I think the kid just grew up, the 18-year-old kid, the 22-year old grew up as a human being, as a man, you know, and what was just impulsive, second nature on the field got smoothed out as I started refereeing. Still remember to this day, I was suspended both as a player and a referee for the same incident at Onion Creek because a referee shoved a red card right on my face after what I felt I was tackled from behind and I took it out from his hand and threw it away. That’s who you’re talking about. It’s unimaginable if people think about Elphad that they know now, but that was, I don’t know, 18 years ago or whatever. And I learned to tie it together, because I had those emotions, I learned and I appreciated what players were going through. I really appreciated what they were going though. I know that the emotional burst has to be given its room versus someone that’s got time to think and now they’re deliberately doing something disrespectful. They’re two different things. And I learned not to overreact and I learned a lot about respect. Players are, you gotta respect them, man. You gotta respect what they’re going through. You gotta respected their, with all the dark arts aside, which we all know, there’s still competitors at the top of their profession and you have to show them respect and appreciation of what they are going through, they just had a bad game, a bad shot, they got scored on, they got tackled, they just missed something. And what I learned is the more I broke down that barrier of communication between me and the players, Before the fouls and the PKs etc. Hey, man, that was a good shot. Hey man, I’m sorry that happened or hey brother I know you didn’t mean it, but you got this the more I did of that the more, I saw that players were responding to me and I didn’t need to go to the Uruguay Canabrio face that I showed to that guy in that game, which was The one you guys were talking about the emotional one If you look up that, it’s a scary alpha, but that only comes out, hopefully once or twice a season. That’s it.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:33:25] Even more from our conversation with Ismail El-Fath after this? More great questions. Right. Because he said so himself. Yep.
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Jimmy Maas [00:34:15] I’ll assume that you’re going to have, I mean, you have another 50 years ahead of you in life, maybe.
Ismail Elfath [00:34:21] You know Documentary for Japan living beyond
Jimmy Maas [00:34:27] You’re going to go hang out in a blue zone? Well, that’s one indicator. So with the next two thirds of your life ahead of you, what’s the plan?
Ismail Elfath [00:34:36] So parallel to my refereeing career, I also had a corporate career. I am now a chief revenue officer for a technology company. So that is going on. Don’t ask me how I did both. I still don’t know how I didn’t both, but a lot of people felt that pain, including myself and my family. To answer your question, there is zero chance that I will live without refereeing in some sort of capacity. Whether assessing, assessing, mentoring, coaching, managing, whatever. I will always do something in refereeing. It’s who I am, it’s what I love, and it’s, I think, a responsibility to give back. As I mentioned, I started this interview. The people that love this profession and give it back to others is why it exists. And it’s absolutely my responsibility to do the same. I don’t know yet what that looks like, it’s only been 10 days, it is my last whistle, but a few things are in the works and hopefully something sticks, but something will stick for sure.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:35:44] You brought up your other gig here, Chief Revenue Officer. Would you consider yourself a Chief Revenue Officer who also referees? Or are you a former professional referee who had a very lucrative side gig that maybe not everybody else would be able to guess?
Ismail Elfath [00:36:06] That’s a really difficult one given that they are both considered at the pinnacle of their professions. My gut tells me I am a referee at heart. Yeah. Everything else was, I will call it side. It definitely was the side. I wouldn’t be fair to all my team and employers and managers, definitely was side. I gave it everything I had as well. But at heart, if I had to choose, of course I’ll do something in refereeing. And that’s why, like I said, it’s always been part of my life and it will always be part of my life as long as I can.
Jimmy Maas [00:36:51] Well, the fitness routine, will all that still be part of your life?
Ismail Elfath [00:36:54] No, not the one that we had as professional referees. I played basketball growing up. Of course, I played soccer as well. I’m looking forward to just playing both with my friends and my kids and hopefully keep some level of fitness. But no, I would not be doing the intervals. I will not be the three hour double days with intervals and workouts and sprints and all that. No.
Jimmy Maas [00:37:21] You were a referee for a long time. There is a referee shortage across all of competition, not necessarily in the utmost level, but there’s a referee’s shortage. What’s your biggest sales pitch to get folks to get out there and give it a go?
Ismail Elfath [00:37:40] I’m really glad you asked that question and forgive me, I’ll elaborate a bit on it. Number one, for those that, you know, are let’s say adults, 18 and up, it’s the best seat in the house. If you just like love being around soccer, it is the best seat in house. You’ll get the same satisfaction as you’re playing. For those that need an extra gig, an extra bit of cash, there’s no better way. Um it pays well even on the weekend and it depends how much you want to be out there you know there’s games during the week there’s high school there’s college all kinds of stuff um and if you have gone through at least you know youth soccer in the u.s or college i considered it a way that you can the back. If you’re not going to coach, you can referee or mentor, whatever. For young kids, you know, people that are non-adults, 18 and under or so, that question is very complex. Yelling at an adult is one thing, yelling at a child is another thing, especially a child that’s learning. It is very sad to witness. It is a cancer in our sport and it’s why the numbers are low. If you want high quality, you need high numbers. If you on high numbers, you need to make it safe for them to referee. And when you walk around and see who’s refereeing and a lot of the youth games, it’s younger kids. You know, they’re 12, they are 15, 16, 17, 18, maybe just started college or they’re seniors in high school. And they’re not ready for adults to be abusing them. They’re not really. They have not taken any life or professional training to be ready for that. So it’s very traumatic to them. And that’s why no matter how much you pay them, it’s not worth it. And that why they quit. So what I would tell people is if you are around the game in any capacity, do three things. Anytime you’re in any field, whether you’re a parent or coach or whatever, go genuinely ask, thank the referee for being there. Don’t just shake their hand and move on. Just look them in the eye and say, hey man or girl, thank you for being here. You could have been doing a lot of stuff and you chose to be here with us and make our game happen. I really appreciate it. It goes a long, long way, right? Number two, don’t just be a quiet witness when you see abuse. If you’re a parent, your co-parents, from the other side or whatever, in a polite, professional way, you gotta call it out. Hey man, kid over there. I don’t care. Yeah, they got it wrong. So don’t stand for abuse if you’re witnessing. And number three, try it. Absolutely do try it! It’s half a day clinic and you have a badge and you can refer it. So I would say try it. And I think for those who try it, they’ll see the enjoyment and the bug that I was talking about is pretty addictive.
Jimmy Maas [00:40:55] Guess who’s going to the clinic.
Ismail Elfath [00:40:56] Do it. There you go, Jimmy It’s fun. And if there’s no better referees than ex players or fans Because they know they don’t need to read the book. They know what a foul looks like
Jimmy Maas [00:41:08] Yeah, it was totally shoulder to shoulder. I’m just gonna say that on everything. Hey, I appreciate the time and thank you for doing this with us and appreciate it. Absolutely, thank you guys. So I took him up on it. One, I went to referee class. How did that go, Jimmy? Well. We’ll see. The closest one, as it happens that week, was in New Braunfels. At the Westin Soccer Fields off Depp and Schmidt Road, that’s the most New Braunfalsey name I could come up with. I demanded that it be off of some very German road, Depp& Schmidt. Sounds prestigious. And then I went through the class and here we go.
Randy Martinez [00:41:52] You see me around the area. I’m most likely gonna give you some constructive criticism. I’ll tell you what you can do well and what you could work on, right? It’s tools, all right? You take it.
Randy Martinez [00:42:07] I’m Randy Martinez. I am a referee mentor and referee grassroots referee.
Jimmy Maas [00:42:14] What is your, what’s your day job by chance?
Randy Martinez [00:42:16] At AJR, this is an HR director.
Jimmy Maas [00:42:19] So you are basically refereeing during the day as well. It’s definitely a…
Randy Martinez [00:42:22] Definitely, I do refereeing at the office, definitely.
Jimmy Maas [00:42:25] We were just chatting about referee standards, etc. I can handle this type of gig. Or maybe I can’t. How did I do today?
Randy Martinez [00:42:34] You did okay. You did. Okay. You know, being new, we understand that there’s going to be some stuff that you’re going to have to, you know, work on and stuff. And that’s what these, these, you know? And clinics are do are meant for is to make sure that you get a grasp of the basics. And then it’s like anything else in life where you, you continually to do it, you’re gonna progressively get better at it.
Jimmy Maas [00:42:55] So like maybe next weekend, I might be ready for an assessment, maybe? Yeah, it is.
Randy Martinez [00:43:00] Yeah, anytime. So anytime, so as a referee mentor, anytime we can help you along, we do, right. So we’ll look at you when you’re on the pitch and we’ll make sure that hey, you’re doing things and then afterwards we’ll get together and talk about it.
Jimmy Maas [00:43:13] I might require more than one weekend of refereeing to get the hang of it, but how thick a skin do you have to have to do this? So
Randy Martinez [00:43:21] I’ve gone through a lot, right? I got a thick skin and I’ve heard everything pretty much and seen a lot of stuff. And I’ve, old school, where I have a thicker skin, there’s some referees that are thin skinned and it’s difficult for them, right, because they want to be right all the time. They want to explain their decisions and everything. And you just got to take it as a grain of salt, you know. You’re going to have coaches that you know, right and you’re reffing them. And they’re gonna be yelling at you. And for me, it’s not a big deal because he’s got a job to do, which is coaching, right? He may not know the laws of the game, right, and that’s why I’m there. So I don’t take offense to it. I know he’s doing something and he’s looking at it from a different perspective than a fan, where most of the times your fans are ignorant about it. They don’t know. And they’re just yelling out what they think. So when you’re calling the game… I can’t let them bother me because then I taint the game and I don’t have the right atmosphere on the game.
Jimmy Maas [00:44:26] Do you even hear the, Hey, or any of that? That’s the nicest thing you might hear.
Randy Martinez [00:44:31] Yeah, yeah that’s the nicest thing by far. Me, per se, I don’t because I’ve learned how to tune that out, years experience. I can tell you that the younger referees, and that’s one of the ones, when I mentor them, that they say is like they’re always yelling at me and this and that. And you know I can’t, and so I basically tell them, hey you got to tune it out. Don’t worry about what they’re saying, worry about what’s going on in the field. You know the laws of the game. Just, you know, ref your game and let that just be on the outside.
Jimmy Maas [00:45:06] Still, this probably is one of the bigger, this is a total guess, anecdotal evidence, a reason why we’re seeing a shortage of referees at many levels of soccer.
Randy Martinez [00:45:20] I can tell you exactly what it is. It’s called referee abuse, right? And not necessarily that, you know, someone’s physically… It’s America’s pastime. Yeah. Stop.
Jimmy Maas [00:45:30] Stop bringing this down, this is why we go to the game.
Randy Martinez [00:45:34] Everybody’s referees, but they don’t go through it, right? They think they know the laws of the game. They’ve never seen the laws of the games, you know? So whether they do, the aggression just comes out and they start yelling. I understand it as a spectator to a certain point, but you know, you’ve got to know where that line is, right? So when it happens on the pitch and you’re coming off the pitch and you are in my face, you now, I’m a grown man and I know how to conduct myself, you know, and being in the military, I really know how I conduct myself. But those that don’t know how to do that, especially youth, they have no clue about that. They don’t what to do, and that’s a lot for them. And then they just turn around and say, I don’t want to do it anymore. They yell at me. And depending on the area, and if they have an onsite coordinator or a mentor that’s there, or the signer, or the director of referees, we can help that. But unfortunately, there’s so many games, and some areas are so big, that they don’t have that. Consistency there for them to help them out and then they just get scared and they don’t want to deal with it and then and I would even say that that’s true for adults I’ve had some adults that have come like I’m done after one weekend like I can’t take this like they just they don’t know what they’re talking about they just scream they’re in my face I don’t wanna do it it’s unfortunate right everybody you’re a referee oh you’re a referee you know you don’t know anything it’s like you haven’t even seen Give me a chance first, and then tell me I suck.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:47:02] So, Jimmy, when’s your first game? I wanna heckle you. Well.
Jimmy Maas [00:47:07] If you learned anything from this podcast, Juan, heckling referees is not the way to…
Juan Diego Garcia [00:47:13] Heckling referees is like a foundational element of soccer, Jimmy. What are you talking about?
Jimmy Maas [00:47:18] As as I as I I mentioned that to Randy and yes, it is but at the same time Don’t want to drive them all off. All right, look
Juan Diego Garcia [00:47:28] I never said I was going to go heckle all referees. Just me. I said I was going to heckle you.
Jimmy Maas [00:47:32] Well, I’m two modules away from getting my patch, so you can see me out on the field sometime soon.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:47:39] I will accept the red card that you inevitably give me with…
Jimmy Maas [00:47:45] If I see you walk out of your car, I’m just going to
Juan Diego Garcia [00:47:48] Remove you from the field immediately preemptively. Yeah, and I’ll report you to whatever governing body gave you that fancy little patch It’s gonna be a great patch. Can’t wait to wear it
Jimmy Maas [00:47:58] and you get a new one every year. So I’ll have May. Yeah, you get 2026 and then you’ll get a 2027 next year. It’s going to be great.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:48:06] When you put it like that, I kind of want to go get certified to be a referee.
Jimmy Maas [00:48:11] New patch every year, just $78.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:48:15] Let’s get shirts made that said, I do it for the patch.
Jimmy Maas [00:48:19] A big thanks to Ismael Alfath. Congratulations on a long career and apparently a very long life ahead of him. Thanks so much for sitting down with us. Also thanks to Elizabeth McQueen and Tanu Thomas here at the KUT and KUTX studios. A big thank to the folks over at Austin F.C.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:48:38] Big thanks to the multimedia team here at KUT as well.
Jimmy Maas [00:48:43] This cannot be understated. As soon as we booked this mail, they were all over it. They wanted photos and video and everything else. Find that on your socials and will and look for us and follow Juan while you’re there. You can follow me if you really just want to see very little get posted over time. Too busy, which is so ironic because your handle is literally moss photos. Yeah, I it’s strange how that’s just not worked out. It’s not part of my day to day. At any rate. Big thanks to Jaron Marshall for this lovely song that you’ve listened to over and over. And big thanks to you for showing up and listening to us.
Juan Diego Garcia [00:49:22] Every time, all the way through.
Jimmy Maas [00:49:24] To the end. The very, very end. So as a treat for you, enjoy whistle practice.
Randy Martinez [00:49:32] So let’s do it. Ah. Ah. Yeah. A little, little louder, right? Yeah. There you go. There you. Yeah. All right.
Randy Martinez [00:49:49] Alright, so gotta remember that when we do that
Jimmy Maas [00:49:55] Vamos Verde is produced at KUT and KUTxStudios, part of KUT Public Media, home of Austin’s NPR station and the Austin Music Experience. We are a non-profit media organization. If you feel like this is something worth supporting, set an amount that’s right for you and make a donation at supportthispodcast.org.
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This transcript was transcribed by AI, and lightly edited by a human. Accuracy may vary. This text may be revised in the future.
