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There’s a lot to talk about in Texas on a daily basis and Texas Standard wants to get to as much as we can. But sometimes that means taking a great conversation and making it much shorter than we’d like. Such is the case with one this week with longtime Texas politico Ben Barnes. Our David Brown talked with him about his new memoir “Get It Done: Seven Decades of Lessons from a Political Legend.”
We present the interview in its entirety here for you now. Check it out — you’ll definitely learn something.
The full transcript of this episode of Texas Standard is available on the KUT & KUTX Studio website. The transcript is also available as subtitles or captions on some podcast apps.
Laura Rice [00:00:00] Hello Texas Standard Podcast listeners, Laura Rice here with a Texas Extra, extended and special content just for our lovely podcast audience. Regular listeners to the program know it’s rather punchy and to the point. That’s part of our style. There’s a lot to talk about in Texas on a daily basis and we want to get to as much as we can. But sometimes that means taking a great conversation. Making it much shorter than we’d like to. Such is the case with one this week with long-time Texas politico Ben Barnes. Our David Brown talked with him about his new memoir, Get It Done, Seven Decades of Lessons from a Political Legend. We present the interview in its entirety here for you now. Check it out, you’ll definitely learn something.
David Brown [00:00:53] It’s the Texas Standard, I’m David Brown. The first U.S. President to hail from Texas was not known for his skills as a prognosticator. But as a politician, few, if anyone, matched the powers and prowess of a former school teacher from the Hill Country, best known by his initials, LBJ. And it was none other than Lyndon Baines Johnson himself, who predicted that the Texan we’re about to talk to would one day be president of the United States himself. In fact, he said it more than once. And for good reason. Ben Barnes was a Texas political wunderkind, elected to the State House at twenty-two, Speaker by twenty-six, Lieutenant Governor by thirty, and even after leaving elected office for real estate and finance, he’s remained a force in politics, something of a kingmaker himself. The powerful and politically ambitious still seek his counsel. Just ask Gavin Newsom. A lot of stuff we never get to hear about happens behind the velvet curtain. And now, at age 88, Barnes has got a few things he’s ready to say for the record. They’re included in an utterly fascinating, page-turning, name-dropping memoir that’s part political biography, part front-port storytelling, and 100 percent fun for fans of that unusual institution known as Texas politics. The title, Get It Done, Seven Decades of Lessons from a Political Legend. And that he is. Ben Barnes, welcome to the Texas Standard.
Ben Barnes [00:02:22] David, I’m very glad to be here and it’s a real pleasure.
David Brown [00:02:25] It’s a real honor to have you. How does a kid growing up on a peanut farm in De Leon, Texas find himself in a room with President Johnson? Do you grow up full of political ambition?
Ben Barnes [00:02:34] No, David, I didn’t. I grew up on a very small peanut farm. And I think that the only exposure I had to politics as a young man is my dad was a faithful supporter of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. And of course, we didn’t have television then. As a matter of fact, we did have electricity at my house until we were in the eighth grade. But we would listen to FDR’s fireside chats on a radio. And very unusual, we would sit in a room and look at the radio. When I. Of course, we didn’t know television was on the way, and I still wonder this day why my dad had us to get into our very small living room and gather around and look at the radio to hear President Roosevelt.
David Brown [00:03:17] Well you were 21 when you met President Johnson, what do you think he saw in you that you didn’t yet see in yourself?
Ben Barnes [00:03:25] Oh, I’m speculating on this, but I think President Johnson saw a young man that was willing to take menial tasks and really try to get any job that he was assigned done and, and very eager and very anxious and used to hard work. And I think, I think Johnson had worked hard all his life and I think he saw anybody that was willing do menial task and willing to work very hard. That was something that attracted President Johnson’s attention.
David Brown [00:03:55] What did it actually mean to be sort of seen as Lyndon Johnson’s protege? Was that a blessing or could it become a burden?
Ben Barnes [00:04:03] Well, it was certainly both. I don’t want to take anything away from President Johnson and his tremendous influence he had and many things that he would have never happened in Texas if Lyndon Johnson had not been a Texan and wanted to help his state as much as he did. But it was a very interesting time for a… Kid from DeLeon, Texas to even be in the room with Lyndon Johnson and to observe him and watch him work the Johnson magic. Lyndon Johnston loved people and he loved to contact with people and was a touchy feely person. He put his arm around you and would look you right in the eye and say what he wanted you to do. But it was very hard to say no to Linda Johnson when he was… Looking right in your face and giving you a challenge to go do something.
David Brown [00:04:56] You know, it’s interesting because Johnson looked to FDR and I think in a sense a lot of folks saw a lot of Johnson in you. And you know, you think back to before your election at age, I guess, 21, 22, the sheer audacity that you demonstrated. I mean, you were a state employee who discovered the misuse of a fund, you refused to sign checks and sneak into the state offices at night. Take the checkbook to legislators to blow the whistle. That essentially launched your political career?
Ben Barnes [00:05:33] It did. I had not ever thought about politics and certainly not thought about running for public office. And I had one very good reason, but it was not the primary reason. I was a college student at the University of Texas and barely had the money to attend the university and to live in Austin with my family. And so it was something that was beyond my wildest dreams that I would run for office so young and really, quite frankly, run for office without any money. And that was the most difficult thing. And because I had no money, and because I was challenged, I thought I could win. I really literally knocked on every door in the three counties in central Texas. And if I had not knocked on the doors, I don’t think I would have had a chance to win. If I had any money, I would’ve probably bought ads in the newspapers and not walked and knocked on all those doors. So in one case, being broke and not having the money to run worked in my favor.
David Brown [00:06:32] I guess some folks saw though something in your audacity. I use that word again because here you are sneaking into a state office at night to get this evidence. Were you fearless or just too young to know what you ought to be afraid of or what motivated you?
Ben Barnes [00:06:47] Well, probably a little bit of both. I was certainly scared because I needed that job and it was a very good job. It was filing birth and death certificates at the state health department. And I could work and get as many hours as I could possibly spend at the health department. And so I, I would spend 30 hours a week working and I was getting a dollar and a half an hour. And so, you know, that, that meant $45 a week. That money was the difference between me staying in school and having to quit. And so it was a very important job and I didn’t want to lose it, but yet I was not only reluctant, I just wasn’t going to sign a check when I knew that money was coming out of employees’ flower fund, as they called it. It came from the concession stand that was in the lobby of the health department where employees bought sandwiches and cokes and sacks of peanuts and that profit went into the Employee Fund. Spend money when someone got sick or us to celebrate Thanksgiving and Christmas. So it wasn’t the commissioner held some money. It wasn’t anybody’s money, but the employees. And I wasn’t going to be the one to play a role in any way whatsoever of taking any money that wasn’t ours. And I wanted to protect it for all the other employees.
David Brown [00:08:03] You know, it sort of runs counter, though, to the way that people think about how politics really works. And, you know, you think about your rise. You were 26 years old, 26 years and you become Speaker of the Texas House. What did you understand about power that most folks looking at the Capitol from the outside just didn’t understand? Because you clearly had to have some kind of intuition or inherent understanding about what was going on.
Ben Barnes [00:08:31] Well, I think a lot of the things that played into my work ethic were what I learned on that small farm in West Texas where we had to work or we weren’t going to be able to hang on to the farm or we were not going to survive or make a crop. And so hard work was something I was used to, but I really felt like that this was a chance for me to do something and somehow, in some way, I felt that I had a chance for when. And that was probably based on poor judgment because in the beginning, I probably didn’t have a chance to win. But it was a very strange thing. And I looked back on my high school English literature class when I had a English literature teacher that made me read a book that I had no plans of ever reading. And she handed me Le Miseral’s. And uh… And said, you read this book, the other class, the rest members of the class are reading the Egyptian. She said, I want you to read Le Mesereau’s. And reading the story of the French Revolution and what those young people were able to do, that had always been something that has stuck in my mind and I remembered continually. So I think that probably that if I’d not read that book, I might not have had that faint, distant. Ambition to want to run and to serve.
David Brown [00:09:59] You think you sort of got something out of Le Miserable that was sort of spoke to the way that politics worked, sort of, you help people, they’ll help you out?
Ben Barnes [00:10:12] Yes, I think that was part of it, and I think another part of it was the fact that I realized that you could have a real impact no matter how old you are, and those young teenage children in the streets of Paris made me think that I was maybe 21 and wasn’t too young to run, per se, representing.
David Brown [00:10:32] Well, you’re touching on something that obviously has a lot of resonance today. You have a lot young people who feel like they’re knocking at the door of politics and having difficulty getting in. How do you, when you think about young people today in politics, the subtitle of your book, Lessons about Politics, would you encourage someone, a young person to get involved in politics given what it’s become now.
Ben Barnes [00:11:01] I have vacillated through the recent times in which we live on whether I think that a young person has got an adequate chance to have an impact on politics, and more importantly, whether a young person as young as I was can get elected now. But I’m an optimist and I believe it’s possible and I think young people can have an impact. I think to have an impact, though, you have to be involved. And have to do your homework and that’s a pretty trite description of how you should live your life. But I really do believe that and I’ve given young people a lot of advice back through the years and been kind enough to come see me, but I always tell them the same thing. Always be the most prepared person in the room. Do your homework, understand more about the subject. Don’t talk too much and don’t try to brag about how much more you know than anybody else in the room, but make certain when you go into a room to discuss a subject, you may not from experience be the most qualified person, but from research and now with AI and all the research tools that are available, there’s no reason for a young person not to be equal to or certainly to be somewhat prepared when they’re discussing an issue, particularly a public policy. People will listen to you if they think you really understand and have really done some research and have got some judgment.
David Brown [00:12:30] You, so much has been made of your relationship with LBJ that I think it might obscure another relationship that you had, and that’s with John Connolly, governor of Texas. In this book, obviously he comes through as enormously effective, but here’s a man that very powerful figure in politics, not just Texas politics, but at the national level 2, but you said no to him. I mean, on several occasions, thinking about marijuana penalties, civil liberties, race, some other issues. What happened when you told John Connolly no?
Ben Barnes [00:13:12] Well, John Connolly was a great political leader, as you have said in your previous remarks. And he was hard to say no to. John Connally was one of the most persuasive individuals that I have ever known. And it was very hard for him to say, no to, but I tell you the great thing about John Connelly, he respected my right for me to have my own opinion. And he said that to me several times. Now, Ben, I want you to tell me really what you think about this. Tell me what you really believe. I don’t want it any sugarcoated. What do you think this idea? Why do you disagree with me at this? Tell me why. But you had to be prepared and you had be willing to be very candid with him. But if John Connolly thought you were candid with them, I think he listened to you more and certainly we did have disagreements. But, uh. It was always disagreements that when we got through with our discussion or got through with our disagreements, I always felt like that John Connolly still respected me and still was willing to work with me. And as we worked together more and more, I became more comfortable disagreeing with him. And there was not a lot of disagreement, but yes, there were some very significant ones, but John Connally had more vision. Than any governor that I’ve ever known from any state. And what he did in Texas to take our higher education system through the transition it did when Texas was changing from an agriculture and a farming and ranching state to an urban area, and he recognized, and Austin today, Austin, when I came to Austin, there was 185,000 people there. Today, the metropolitan area also almost has two million people. And if John Connolly hadn’t had the vision to understand that we had to improve our higher education system and our public education system. But if he hadn’t recognized that we need to spend the money and research and development and be willing to spend the political capital to pass the tax bills to pay for that education. And that’s what’s helped make the University of Texas and Texas A&M. And all the new colleges and universities we’ve created, it’s been very, very beneficial for the past 50 years what John Connelly’s vision, when he came to the governor’s office, and the vision he had for what Texas could accomplish, and particularly what the city of Austin could accomplish.
David Brown [00:15:47] Mr. Barnes, one of the things that I think makes this book sort of priceless when it comes to a kind of political textbook is how it fills in the blanks of a lot of what happened in the years since. You know, you think about the redistricting work that you did, which in a very important way led to the creation of a heavily black Houston congressional district that could elect someone like Barbara Jordan, who is considered today obviously this monumental historical figure in American politics. What was Barbara Jordan like before the rest of America knew who she was?
Ben Barnes [00:16:28] Well, Barbara Jordan was a shy person who had tried to run for office in Houston and had been defeated for the state legislature two or three times before their Senate district was drawn, where she had a chance to win and she won and there she was, a very young person coming to the Texas Senate, the first black woman to serve in the Texas legislature, the first black woman to serve in the Texas Senate. And I was a 26-year-old Speaker of the House. And we were both young. And we both had our doubts in some ways about how effective we were going to be. And maybe we kind of cried on one another’s shoulders sometime when we were talking and trying to determine what we should do on a particular issue. But Barbara Jordan had the courage and had the charm and it had the veracity to. Not to sit on the back row and be very quiet, she soon understood that she could be effective and that people would listen for her. And she had a tremendous voice. As a matter of fact, I’ve said before that if I was trying to visualize what the voice of God really sounded like, it would be like Barbara Jordan because she had an incredible voice at the hearing on Nixon’s impeachment. The speech she made at the conclusion, it still rings very clear in the eyes of anybody that’s got political ambition. And she set an example for Black Americans that they could rise into leadership positions in government much more quicker than they had expected. And she was around when President Johnson, in his very persuasive way, convinced Congress to pass the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. And it was something that Barbara was in the state Senate when a lot of that was happening and it was making her so proud. And she grew to be a great fan of President Johnson as I did. And it’s really incredible to think about a person who grew up in Stonewall, Texas, who taught school in Cotula, Texas to an almost entirely Hispanic group of young people. And had his meager background in the area where he grew up to be the man in America to join Abraham Lincoln in doing the most for the black people and the brown people in our country as anyone has done. And Barbara was, when she’d start thinking about it and talking about it, she’d almost become giggly from the standpoint that she was so happy. It was happening and she was as happy as I was. That we might’ve played some small role, but that we had a front row seat to see what was happening in the United States of America in the 60s and how beneficial it was to all the people living in our country.
David Brown [00:19:32] Wasn’t too long after that that you had well you had been for all of your adult life you had a kind of golden boy in politics and You know you were winning and then suddenly you lost What did losing that governor’s race? I guess it was 72 if I’m if memory serves
Ben Barnes [00:19:52] That’s right, it was 72.
David Brown [00:19:53] What did that teach you that winning never had?
Ben Barnes [00:19:58] Well, it taught me that you had to be very careful the friends you made, but you had to be even more careful perhaps the enemies you made. I got on Richard Nixon’s enemy list and he and his administration helped create a scandal in Texas. People have forgotten about what happened in 72, but there was a scandal with an insurance owner and a bank owner in Houston. Named Frank Sharp, and Nixon Attorney General John Mitchell created a Sharpstown scandal. It covered some of the people in office, but not me or not anybody else at the statewide level, but we had 66 members of the House of Representatives got beat. Everybody that had any type of a serious opponent got beat, and then we had six other statewide officials, ever-statewide officials. Running for re-election got defeated in 72 and it was really kind of all because of Nixon’s concern about me and the concern about the continuation of the Johnson-Connally team in Texas that they worked so hard to create that scandal and they were very successful at and I had to help run. He were in Humphrey’s campaign for president in 68, and Vice President Humphry carried Texas by a bigger majority than Berlin and Johnson and Jack Kennedy had carried it in 1960. So Nixon, who had ambitions, not only in 1968, when Bush became president, he certainly wanted to continue to be president and win again in 72. And so he wanted to make sure that if he could slow down any. Democrats that had the ability to lead and convince Texas to remain a democratic state. He was very anxious to remove any of those obstacles that were in his way. And so I fell victim to that. But, you know, I tell you, maybe it was another time that being young helped. I had served in politics for 12 years. I’d had every go my way, everything that I touched was was good and positive and there I was 34 years old and I just lost the governor’s race of Texas. Well if I’d been 44 or 54 or 64 I might have been more concerned but I was 34 and I felt like how fortunate I’d be and I knew a lot of people in Texas. People would offer me opportunities to come and go to work in the private sector. And I wanted to do that. That was challenging. And I, and I wanted them to go make some money for me and my family. I wanted do that, so, so I didn’t really spend a lot of time locking myself in the closet and shedding tears about getting defeated. I felt like that I had ample time to use the tools that I’d honed and being in public office in Texas. And I didn, I, while I didn t have any ambition to go run for public office again, I had ambition to keep serving. The people of Texas and from the private sector rather than the public sector. And I knew I still had a good full life ahead of me. And I was gonna be able to spend time with my children, my family, and I was going to have another chance to make good and accomplish some things. And so I was looking forward to that.
David Brown [00:23:40] Still thinking about this book as a kind of almost a textbook in politics in a sense, you know, there’s been so much talk about George Bush and George W. Bush and the National Guard and you address that in this book. You say you helped Bush get preferential treatment. You would acknowledge that during the Cary campaign in 2004. But you’ve said helping Bush get into the Air National Guard was an abuse of your power. When did you come to see it though?
Ben Barnes [00:24:18] Well, it’s not personal and there’s been too much attention attracted about George Bush because I didn’t only get George Bush to get in the National Guard, I helped a lot of young men get in that National Guard and I have said upon thinking about it and looking back, it was wrong for a 26, 27, 28-year-old. The Speaker of the House and Lieutenant Governor to have the power I did to be able to open a door for people to go into the National Guard. So it wasn’t only George Bush that I did that for. I did for dozens of young men in Texas. And that was wrong. It was wrong for me to have that power, and it was wrong to have them have a route not to have to go to Vietnam because their parents or their grandparents or their close friends. Knew Ben Barnes and called me and asked me to help. I had the power to do that and I did help him. I don’t apologize for helping people. I enjoyed the power you have to help people is the great thing about being in public office. But I had no business as a young man being able to decide the fate of whether a person, a young men was gonna go to Vietnam or not. And I really realized that. When I was walking through the Vietnam Memorial late one afternoon and I saw all those names on those walls and I was working with a couple of members of parliament from England that were visiting me. And I realized that those names of young men who had gotten killed in Vietnam was a very sad thing indeed. And what a great price that those people had paid. I don’t want to be critical of anybody that didn’t want to go to Vietnam and wanted to get in the National Guard. That’s a matter between them and their individual conscience. But it was not right for me to have that much power, and I regret that I did that. But that’s not putting any more blame on George Bush than anybody else, and that was an individual’s decision for him to make.
David Brown [00:26:31] You know, there are so many wonderful scenes in this book that you paint. There’s one where Ann Richards and Nancy Pelosi basically hold your golf game hostage. Could you share what happened there?
Ben Barnes [00:26:46] Yes, there was a group of my very good friends, lifetime friends that I played golf with every Saturday and Larry Temple, Howard Rose, and John Mobley, all dear friends. And we had a golf game almost every weekend and I was, that Saturday, preparing to go join them and have a fun golf game. None of us were outstanding golfers, but we had lot of fun. But Rand Richards called me and said she wanted to come to see me and she wanted to bring somebody to my office and they came and, and I met Nancy Pelosi for the first time and Ann said, uh, Pelosi is going to run for a majority leader in the house or minority leader. And someday she wants to be speaker of the house and, and you’ve got to help her. And I said, well, governor, I’m sorry, I I’m already committed to it. A gentleman from Dallas, there was a Congress from Dallas that was running. And she said, well, you’re just going to have to get uncommitted because Nancy Pelosi is going to win and you and you’re going to help her. And, uh, I just said, Well, I’m so sorry, uh Nancy Pelosi, I I’m just committed. And then said, we’re, you just gonna have to get uncommented. And, and I must tell you that we’re not going to leave this office until you agree to help Nancy. And so you’re not gonna have your golf game because we’re going to be sitting here blocking that door. And, I said, I was begging for mercy. Kept looking at my watch and not wanting to be late for that golf game, but they actually stayed. And anybody that knew Ann Richard knows how persuasive that Governor Richards could be. But anyway, they stayed and they stayed, and they said, and finally, finally out of wanting to play golf so bad and wanting to get out of that hot box that Nancy Pelosi and Ann Richards Man I finally agreed to help her and Anne said, okay, you can go play golf, but I want you to get on the phone and call Martin Frost, who’s a running speaker from Texas, and tell him you’re not going to be for him. My gosh, I didn’t want to do that. I called the man on a Saturday afternoon and tell them that I wasn’t going to for him, but they said in my office and… I called Martin Frost and I had hoped that I wasn’t going to be able to get him, but I got him. So there I was in front of Pelosi and Richards having to tell a guy that I told I’d be for him, that I wouldn’t be for him that I was going to pronounce Pelosi. But anyway, I did do that. I was for her and a wonderful thing happened for America. She became the first woman Speaker of the House and did a good job and it started a lifetime friendship between Speaker Pelosi and me and of course, Ann Richards. She called me Benny Frank. She never called me Mr. Speaker or Governor, or she called me, Benny Frank, and she said I reminded her of an oscillating fan. She loved to tease me, but anyway, she too was a good leader, and she opened a lot of doors for women, and I was so sorry that her life was shortened by cancer, but she was a by the character and brought a lot fame and recognition to the women of Texas and the women in the United States that they too can be very important in a leadership role. And like Barbara Jordan, Anne Richards opened a lot of doors for women in Texas.
David Brown [00:29:59] What was Benny Frank? Was that a brand of a fan or something? Was that what that was?
Ben Barnes [00:30:02] No, no, that was my my great great granddad was named Benjamin Franklin my my granddad was named benjamin franklin and then my dad was named bf larnes and so my mother and dad wanted to continue the bf and i don’t know uh uh it’s kind of like naming a boy named sue they named me benny benny frank and and one of the first things i did when i decided that that i was uh wanted to run for office I, at the state health department, that was the state agency went to change her name. So I changed my name from, from Benny to Ben. I knew I was going to have a tough time winning, but I didn’t, I thought Ben Barnes might have a shot, but I did think Benny Barnes had a shot at all.
David Brown [00:30:47] That’s terrific stuff. Title is Get It Done. You’ve been really generous with your time here, Mr. Barnes. I’m wondering if we go back and close a loop on Lyndon Johnson, if we could. What would you consider be the best example of Lyndon Johnson refusing to accept those words, it can’t be done?
Ben Barnes [00:31:10] Well, I think it was a telephone call that’s available in the Johnson Library, where he’s talking to Senator Russell, who is a great member of the Senate. He’s from Georgia. Very, very powerful Senator, and probably the best personal friend that Lyndon Johnson had in the Senate, and one of the people who’d worked the hardest to help him continue his leadership role in the senate. But when he decided that he was gonna pass the civil rights bill, the voting rights bill, he called Dick Russell and there’s a phone conversation where he said, now, Dick, you know I love you and you’re my best friend, but I want to tell you, getting this voting rights act passed and getting the Civil Rights Act passed is a lot more important than you or me as individuals and it’s a lot important than our political career. And I want you to know it’s time for us to do this in the United States and I know you’re not going to vote for it, But I want to tell you this, Dick. The good of friends as we are and as much as I respect you, if you don’t help me do this, or at least if you won’t remain quiet, then I’m gonna run over you. And I don’t wanna run over, but I’m going to do it. And he said it in a very serious, stern voice. And Dick Russell. Uh, didn’t vote for the civil rights bill, but I guarantee you, he did not fight it near as hard as he could have done. And Lyndon Johnson was successful by getting every Dirksen, the Republican leader to help him and bring 30 plus Republican votes and pass the civil right’s bill in 1964 and the voting rights bill in 65. And I, I considered those to be impossible dreams and, and he made them a reality. And I don’t, I think I’ve ever heard words. That that echoed leadership and concern and fear and trust and just the right formula to make the leader of the segregated senators sit down and help not by sitting down and being quiet. It helped President Johnson in pursuing the most important legislation that he was going to pass.
David Brown [00:33:18] On that note, one closing question, I know you’ve known people who’ve become presidents and governors and senators and speakers. You’ve watched folks who seem destined for greatness disappear from public life. What do you think separates the politicians who matter from the politicians who just succeed?
Ben Barnes [00:33:40] Well, I think you have to, first of all, you have to believe and you, and you have to have a reputation of someone whose word is good and who’s going to always do their best to tell the truth. And, and for people to realize that Lyndon Johnson was as talented as he was and that he was a very good friend to have, matter of fact, a friend that you must have if you’re going to be effective in the United States Senate when he was Majority Leader. But you had to know that the man meant what he said. And when he told Dick Russell, if you don’t help me, I’m going to run over you. I don’t exactly know what the definition of run over is in Dick Russell’s mind, but it certainly rang a very clear bell in his mind. Cause he did exactly what president Johnson wanted him to do. And it was an incredible age and time that that happened. You think about the sixties and the unrest. And the background of Vietnam, the background assassination of a president, of a President’s brother, and of the predominant black leader in the United States, Dr. Martin Luther King. What a background of fear and destruction and animosity. And quite frankly, we’ve got way too much hatred today. There was hatred in the air there. But Johnson took all those negatives. And combined them and created a policy to pass that very important legislation.
David Brown [00:35:14] It is one heck of a read. Get it done. Seven decades of lessons from a political legend. We’ve been talking to one. Ben Barnes, thank you so much for taking time to join us on the Texas Standard.
Ben Barnes [00:35:25] Thank you very much.
This transcript was transcribed by AI, and lightly edited by a human. Accuracy may vary. This text may be revised in the future.
