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It’s not everyday you meet someone who has been to space — let alone someone who led a mission and broke barriers for women who might want to do the same. Still, not everyone knows about Eileen Collins and her accomplishments. A new documentary aims to change that. Here’s an extended conversation with Collins and film director Hannah Berryman.
The full transcript of this episode of Texas Standard is available on the KUT & KUTX Studio website. The transcript is also available as subtitles or captions on some podcast apps.
Laura Rice: Hello, it’s Laura Rice joining you with a Texas extra extended and special content tailor made for our podcast audience. It’s not every day I get to talk with someone who has been to space, let alone someone who led a mission and. Broke barriers for women who might want to do the same. Still, not everyone knows about Eileen Collins and her accomplishments.
A new documentary aims to change that. Here’s an extended conversation I had with Collins and the director of Space Woman. Enjoy. You’ve got it tuned to the Texas Standard. I’m Laura Rice. Little girls all over the country don’t get shushed or dismissed anymore when they say they want to grow up to be astronauts.
They can also say they want to pilot a spacecraft or command one. That’s because Eileen Collins did it first decades ago. A new documentary celebrates her level head, natural talent, and glass shattering determination. It’s coming in limited release to theaters in Texas’s biggest cities. It’s called Space Woman.
It’s directed by Hannah Berryman. Hannah, welcome to the Texas Standard.
Hannah Berryman: Thank you so much,
Laura Rice: and we’re also thrilled to have Eileen Collins herself with us. Eileen, welcome.
Eileen Collins: Hi. It’s great to be with you and talk about our story.
Laura Rice: Well, I love it and we love everything Texan. So I gotta, I gotta mention you were based at Johnson Space Center in Houston for a long time, and am I right that you’ve made Texas your home?
Eileen Collins: Oh, that’s right. I was at, uh, 20 years a Johnson Space Center in the years I was a space shuttle astronaut. I married a man from San Antonio and. Love the city. That’s where I live now. And, uh, love Texas. It’s a great place.
Laura Rice: You didn’t grow up here, though, you’re from New York, but even as a young person being not just an astronaut, but a spacecraft pilot was a dream.
Eileen Collins: That’s right. So I grew up in upstate New York, a very rural area. Um, you know, we, people grew corn crops. There were. Cows and dairy everywhere. So I’m, I’m kind of a rural person. I got interested in flying really two ways. The first was through reading books, and I encourage young people to read books about.
People that do things that you would like to do someday. But the other thing is we had the National Soaring Museum in my hometown of Elmira where I was able to watch gliders fly overhead, and kind of, you know, dream of what it would be like to fly myself. Of course, my parents didn’t have the money to.
Give me flying lessons that would’ve been totally ridiculous to ask them for that. So I ended up joining the military. Uh, the Air Force taught me how to fly, and that I think, is what led me in eventually into the astronaut program.
Laura Rice: Well, Hannah, you are from the uk. When do you remember first encountering Eileen’s story?
Hannah Berryman: Um, I’m ashamed to say I didn’t know Eileen’s story. Um, and I, that was one of the reasons I really wanted to make the film because when I read her book, I thought, what an absolutely incredible story. So her quite tough upbringing combined with being the first woman to pilot in command shuttle, which was incredible.
And then being part of some really jeopardized missions. It was, uh, really obviously going to be a great film and people would know her name if they didn’t already. ’cause I’m from London and I just don’t think many people do
Laura Rice: well. Eileen, you mentioned you really, uh, put yourself through the, um, you earned the money yourself to get a pilot’s license.
Uh. Am I right that you were kind of a natural, how, how did you discover that that’s, that’s a cool talent to have? Yeah,
Eileen Collins: yeah. That’s right. Well, I, I, in the film, I talk about how I was never good at sports. I tried basketball and, you know, I, I tried very sports When I tennis, I, you know, I was okay, but I was never really good at it.
And so I was kind of searching my life. You know, I’m a teenager and I’m kind of searching out, you know, what would I be good at? I was interested in flying. So when I was 16, I started these part-time jobs, saving money. I worked minimum wage jobs and in space women, they talk about the different jobs I did as a teenager.
And by the time I was, uh, going on 20 years old, I had the money. Uh, I had a thousand dollars, which at the time was enough to get a pilot’s license. So I started flying. I found out that I was good at flying. I could take off and land, I could do the maneuvers, uh, hit the altitudes and air speeds. I could talk on the radio and, and I mean, you’re looking down at the beautiful Earth and I thought, I can do this.
This is something that I can make my career. And fortunately, at the time, the Air Force had just opened flight training to women because before, well, let’s see, they opened in 1976. Before that. We were, women were not allowed to fly in the, in any one of the military services, but the country, uh, made it, the country’s leadership made a decision to start bringing women into flight training.
I was actually in a test program back in 1978 to determine if women could fly military aircraft or not. And of course we know the answer now. Women fly just like men. So it was not, uh, today it’s not a big deal and young, young girls can. Dream of being an astronaut, yes. But they can also dream of being, uh, any kind of pilot that they wanna be.
So I was happy to be part of like, to maybe breaking that barrier for women.
Laura Rice: Absolutely. I mean, and I’m glad you brought up this, this period of your life that was a test pilot in the Air Force. I don’t know that people think about how dangerous that job really is. Why is it so risky?
Eileen Collins: Yeah, so I had spent time as a test pilot also, in fact.
Hannah, our, our, uh, film director was able to get some footage from the Air Force Test Pilot school, uh, from, you know, past, present, and future, and we managed to weave that into Space Woman. But I, uh, loved doing the test flying. Um, flew 30 different types of aircraft in one year. Uh, because of my rank, I was the class leader of my test pilot school class.
There were, uh, 25 of us, and here I am as a, not only as a woman, but a cargo pilot. Um, and I’m the class leader for all these fighter pilots and, you know, tough top gun guys. And it turned out we all managed to work well together. And I think the solution to that was we’re a team and we help each other get through these, uh, tough schools and these tough missions that we fly in the military.
And it really is about. Being a team and not saying, well, you’re different because you’re a woman, but working together. But you know, frankly, as you watch Space Woman, you’re gonna see that. Yeah, we were different back in the days that women were breaking down these barriers. Um, so it’s, it’s a good story to have it documented
Hannah Berryman: and just to come in there.
Eileen, obviously to be a test pilot, you are testing the limits of these jets, so you are, it’s. By definition, you are doing the most dangerous flying of them because you’re testing the limits. So that was kind of amazing. That hadn’t happened with women before. And, you know, we discovered this old footage, this brilliant video that was for people joining the Air Force and it was all about men.
And so they did a little skip when they were at, um, test when they were at flight school. Uh, pat and Eileen, uh, pat. Eileen’s husband, they did a joke and they swapped the roles. So they did the exact video, except it was the other way round. And he was the house husband and she was the pilot. And we used that in the film.
So, you know, it was a different era. It really was Battle of the Sexes era, and Eileen came through it.
Laura Rice: I, it’s so delightful. Uh, Hannah, I’m Eileen speaks really matter of factly about all of these barriers that she just barreled down. I toot her horn for her hair. I mean, this was really shortly after the first women like Sally Ride were accepted at nasa.
How, how huge was it when, when Eileen made that move to NASA and then was on this path to being a a, a pilot?
Hannah Berryman: Yeah, so if they hadn’t allowed women to fly the Jets in, in, in the Air Force, then you wouldn’t have been able to make it through to the shuttle program. So as a pilot, so Sally Ride, obviously it was a great achievement to go to space, but she didn’t fly the spaceship.
So that’s why it was so huge when Eileen came along and you see her in a room full of these male pilots and it’s really that kind of right stuff world still at that stage. And it’s tough and she had to prove herself. So yeah, she doesn’t. Talk about it in that way, but it must have been a real feat to do that.
Laura Rice: Eileen, you became the first woman, not just to pilot a spacecraft, but also to command one. Why would you want the weight of a mission on your shoulders?
Eileen Collins: Well, you know, I, I love a challenge. I have found that once I really learned as much as I could about the space shuttle, of course, I was always continuing learning and learning, getting to know the people, the other astronauts, the flight directors, the engineers, the technicians, the people that worked in the shuttle program.
I loved the mission so much, and I think that I feel confident in myself as far as being a decision maker, um, being a person who likes to encourage communication, I like to be a good listener. I like to ask people questions. I wanna encourage creativity. So I think in that respect, that was the type of leader that I was not really a yelling orders at people, but being a collaborative type of leader.
And when you’re in a, I would say a mission like flying in space where everyone is very educated and already dedicated to the mission, they love the mission, I would say. You need a different type of leader for that. So I’m was kind of a collaborative leader, and especially at the time when we had the terrible accident, and this will come out in the film, when we lost the space shuttle of Columbia in 2003, people needed someone to talk to.
People felt horrible about the accident, and I found myself in a leadership role of going around and being a listener and trying to bring people together. So I think for me it was more of being a natural. Type of leader in the sense that I wanna listen and I wanna help people, and I want them to be better in their job.
And, and the most important of all is keeping everyone focused on the mission. So I felt like I was very well prepared. I wanted to be the commander of the flight after the accident. And I was happy that NASA had the confidence in me to, uh, keep me on and fly that mission that was called return to flight.
It was a huge challenge, but you know what? An honor, um, I was so well prepared. Uh, you know, I, and I’m not going to say, you know, I was better than anybody else. I think it was just that I hit the places I had been, made me, uh, very well prepared.
Laura Rice: Yeah. You know, there’s a moment in the film that highlights some advice you gave to another female astronaut.
What in general is your lesson for women in leadership or women who want to be in leadership?
Eileen Collins: Yeah, so there’s so much I could say about that. My first thing is you need to know as much as possible about your job, be as good as you can in your job, but also learn about your industry. So read the history of your industry.
Read case studies of where people made mistakes, what was done to correct for those, and then. Secondly, be a good communicator, which means being a good listener. And I find that some people tend to intimidate. I didn’t wanna be that kind of person. So I, I think it’s the way we approach people and looking them in the eye and saying, Hey, I, I value you and I wanna know what you’re thinking.
So don’t ever be afraid to speak up. And then the last thing I’d say is it falls on integrity. You know, being, being honest with people and having that trust factor that. It, you can trust people to be honest in the future. And, and so I always try to come back to those three things, uh, knowing your job, communicating and maintaining a sense of integrity.
So that’s the same type of advice I’d give that to women, but also. To men and always stay focused on the mission.
Laura Rice: Well, Hannah, this film space woman, has made the rounds in film festivals and now you’re taking it to different parts of the us. You just have to be passionate to make this kind of, of independent film and, and really wanna bring it to audiences.
Hannah Berryman: Definitely, I mean, independent documentary making is not an easy business anymore. Um, but we knew we had a great story with Eileen’s and it’s emotional and it’s involving and it’s jeopardized and people should come and see it. Uh, we’re doing lots of q and a, so just look up on Space women.film and you can find all the information about whether there’s a cinema screening it near you.
Laura Rice: Well, of course we didn’t touch on all the aspects of the film. There’s, there’s your relationship with your daughter, Eileen. There’s, there’s so much of the, sort of the pressure of, of people just asking about your role as a mother and, and, and as a woman. Hannah, what do you hope that people take away from this film?
Hannah Berryman: I hope that if they see this pioneering women, they take away that it wasn’t easy. You can’t do everything brilliantly at every single point. And that’s fine. It’s worth it. Do it. Follow your passions. Follow your dreams, women and men. And take, you know, sometimes you have to take risks as well. That’s the other thing about life, modern life, it’s lots, all quite safety, but it’s also to be human is to take those risks and especially risks when you have endeavor.
And so that’s kind of the messages of the film.
Laura Rice: Eileen, what would you add?
Eileen Collins: Well, you know, the, the, the film is actually two things. It, first of all, it’s the missions. I flew my time in the Air Force and then the four missions I flew on the space shuttle. But what Hannah really brought in that, uh, I thought she did such a great job on that.
I hadn’t really thought about as much. Was my family. You know, of course I think about my family, but what role would that be in the Space Woman film? Mm-hmm. Well, Hannah has brought out what did my husband feel during all the missions I flew, what did my, especially my daughter who was seven years old when the accident happened, and then nine years old when I flew the return to flight mission after the accident, and kind of revolves around her story also.
And you know, how do. Family members feel when their loved one goes off into something, uh, dangerous or risky. And that part really was kind of new to me, seeing, you know, my daughter being interviewed and her, her feelings up there on the screen. And I think that’s what really touches people, is they watch the film.
It’s not just about cool space missions, but it’s also about humans and how we, uh, relate to each other.
Laura Rice: Eileen Collins was the first woman to pilot and command a spacecraft. The film Space Woman is based on her book Through the Glass Ceiling to the Stars, and is directed by Hannah Berryman. It’s coming to theaters in Texas in April.
Eileen Hannah, thank you both again.
Hannah Berryman: Thanks so much for having us.
Eileen Collins: Thanks. Enjoyed it.
This transcript was transcribed by AI, and lightly edited by a human. Accuracy may vary. This text may be revised in the future.
