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UT Austin professor Chaar López, a scholar on border surveillance, was denied tenure without a stated reason, despite positive reviews and recommendations. What this means for his future, and what experts have to say about his case.
Tiny Sounds Collective is supporting independent bands by booking all-ages shows in nontraditional spaces. The idea is built on a budget-free, do-it-yourself philosophy.
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The full transcript of this episode of Austin Signal is available on the KUT & KUTX Studio website. The transcript is also available as subtitles or captions on some podcast apps.
Jerry Quijano [00:00:08] A professor at UT Austin who, by all performance measures at least, was considered a shoe-in for tenure was denied. His research focuses on how border surveillance technologies are tied to history and race, and he still hasn’t been given a reason for that denial. More about the impacts on his career and his life, and how rare are these kinds of denials? We’re going to tell you more about the tenure process and the specifics of this Rejection that is coming up on today’s show
KUT Announcer: Laurie Gallardo [00:00:35] The Austin Signal is a production of KUT News, hosted by Jerry Kehanel.
Jerry Quijano [00:00:40] Plus, an Austin-based collective is supporting independent bands by booking all-ages shows, and they’re doing so in non-traditional spaces. Their idea is built on a budget-free, do-it-yourself philosophy. We’re going to tell you more about them. That’s coming up next. It is right here on Austin Signal. Bye. Howdy out there, this is Austin Signal. Thank you for making us part of your Monday. It is July 27th, and this is community-powered public radio, KUT News. American Studies professor, Ivan Charloves, is about to start his seventh year at the University of Texas at Austin. He specializes in border security and technology and was being considered for tenure status. Scholars throughout the review process, both from within and outside UT, recommended him for tenure, but to Charlopes’ surprise, he was ultimately denied, and he still doesn’t know why. His story was first reported in the Austin American Statesman, and we’ll be talking with that reporter in just a bit. Right now we are joined by Professor Ivan Charlopez. Professor, thank you for being with us on Austin Signal.
Iván Chaar López [00:01:54] No, thank you.
Jerry Quijano [00:01:56] OK when you came to the University of Texas did you do so with the intentions of gaining tenure while you were here.
Iván Chaar López [00:02:03] Oh, absolutely. So the University of Texas initially tried to hire me, and I participated in three separate searches, one in the Department of History, the other in the department of American Studies, and another in a interdisciplinary program. And the Department Of History position was in Texas, U.S. Mexico borderlands history. The American Studies position was in digital studies. So my work actually traverses both of those things. So I was actually a finalist in all of them. So the university had me pick. So what department would you like to negotiate with and join? So I negotiated with American Studies because my work is very interdisciplinary. So when they hired me, they were interested in all the work that I did. Work around border enforcement and the history of information technologies used there since the mid-20th century. They were interested in my connection to science and technology studies, which is a really porting and really dynamic field since the 1970s. So they wanted to bring that to UT.
Jerry Quijano [00:03:16] What value does the work that you have done over the past decade or so, what does that add to the university?
Iván Chaar López [00:03:22] The work that I do helps us understand processes of automation, of immigration and border enforcement, of the impacts of computing and culture broadly in an age of AI, when there is so much uncertainty when it comes to what life will look like. When it comes immigration and board enforcement research that I Thank you. That work shows us the impacts that border enforcement technologies have on communities, the impacts that they have on the ways that we come to think about immigrants in the country, how immigrants are stigmatized through the language of enmity, through the of intrusion. And in all public conversations, because I do research with old newspapers, I look into government archives, I look into military documents. I go through all these kinds of historical materials and they show us how people talk about those who are identified in crossing the border, how they’re discussed. Oftentimes in the press, we tend to hear this when people discuss Donald Trump’s politics and they say, well, they treat Donald Trump as this kind of extraordinary, unprecedented figure. But in fact, the kind of discourse that he generates and that he produces has a long, long history in the United States. And the work that I do shows that long history, so that we stop thinking about these current debates, political debates, as if they’re completely disconnected from the past, that there are continuities, even if there might be some differences. And that’s the value that I bring to the university. I hope students think historically, think critically. Think for themselves by analyzing evidence. That’s all I do. I analyze evidence.
Jerry Quijano [00:05:29] You went through all these processes to be approved for tenure, but what was all the work that came before that? How long did this go?
Iván Chaar López [00:05:36] Yeah, when I started the process eight people eight experts that I don’t know that have independence from me That I’ve don’t have a relationship with they reviewed my file Unanimously, they said you have to give this person promotion and tenure my department voted again unanimously Yes, we agree with the external reviewers promotion and ten year. Then it goes to the college level 19 people voted in favor of tenure, two people voted against. The dean also supported promotion and tenure. And… At our university, you don’t need unanimity at the college level to achieve tenure. It’s totally fine if there’s one or two votes. Descending votes. Yeah, it’s totally find. It’s part of what being an academic is about. You don’t necessarily have to all agree on a point. It’s whether or not there is either consensus or a majority way of interpreting things. And then that goes to the precedent level. By that time… It is so, so rare, so, so rare for a P and T case to be P and T meaning promotion and tenure case to be denied because it’s gotten the support, wholehearted support of experts, independent experts of faculty governance, faculty that participate in all sorts of committees that allow the university to actually work and also know what it means and what it entails. To achieve promotion and tenure. So by the time it reaches the president’s committee, if the president were to turn down a case, it needs really substantive reasons for that. Your case was turned down, right? And it was turned out. So I asked the interim dean, I met with the interim dean a week after the case was decided in February. And the Dean said that he didn’t know why. It was turned down, that he could only speculate. So he went on and then he speculated. He speculated that maybe it is that the President’s P&T committee has a negative view of my research and a negative of my field. Now, If that is the case, those are grounds for discrimination, it seems to me. Because I was hired to do the specific work that I did. So are they telling me that they hired me to do a specific kind of work, I did the work, and then they were like, no, we don’t want that anymore. That’s not reasonable, that’s not acceptable.
Jerry Quijano [00:08:31] I also read in the reporting that some of your colleagues reached out to the president of the University of Texas personally. What is the reaction that you’ve heard from your colleagues so far?
Iván Chaar López [00:08:39] I’ve heard reactions from colleagues both at UT, but also outside of Texas, internationally. Colleagues in Germany and England and Canada, there’s a lot of concern. At the local level, there is a feeling of hopelessness because what we are being told with this decision is that expert review, independent review, faculty governance, academic freedom, none of these things matter. At the end of the day, whatever the promotion and tenure committee at the president’s level decides, that’s what goes regardless of whether or not They don’t have necessarily the expertise that all the other people that contributed to the process did. They’re also telling faculty that participate in these committees that they don’t value and respect the work that they’ve been doing. So there is this kind of sense of helplessness. There’s also fear. People are now wondering whether or not they should be looking over their shoulders in terms of what are the research questions that I’m asking? What is the research that I’m doing and how will it be interpreted by the upper administration? If I ask questions that they disagree with, am I under threat? Am I gonna be identified a danger to the institution or something? So it’s actually, it is impacting the kind of research that can be done at the institution. So. If there is any semblance of academic freedom that they value, they should reconsider. They should reconsider
Jerry Quijano [00:10:41] All right, we have been speaking with Ivan Charlopes, professor of American studies at the University of Texas. Professor, thank you for your time. Thank you so much. And we reached out to the university to ask about the reasoning for Charlopes’ tenure denial. And though a spokesperson said they would not comment on this particular case, they said in a statement, quote, tenure is a privilege, not a right, and UT does not rubber stamp decisions of such importance. The 10-year review process is handled thoughtfully, fairly, and professionally through a thorough system of checks and balances to ensure the highest standards of teaching and research,” end quote. And for more about this story, we are joined by Lily Kepner. She is the higher ed reporter at the Austin American Statesman. Lily, great to talk with you.
Lily Kepner [00:11:26] Thanks for having me.
Jerry Quijano [00:11:27] So, we just spoke with Professor Charlopes. He told us it was rare for a president to deny tenure applications. Is that actually true, and why would that be the case?
Lily Kepner [00:11:35] Yes, that’s correct. So tenure is a very prestigious designation. And because it’s so prestigious, there’s multiple hoops you have to jump through before you even get to starting the formal process. He had a three year review that was successful according to him and his chair. And, um, during the year of his tenure evaluation, he was evaluated by 34 external reviewers and all but two, um recommended him for tenure. And so it would be increasingly rare for the university leadership to go against those faculty judgments because faculty in state statute and in UT system policy are supposed to get deference because of their expertise in judging whether somebody’s scholarship has the merit for tenure.
Jerry Quijano [00:12:29] He also told us that the reasoning for the denial hasn’t been given to him yet. Why is that atypical?
Lily Kepner [00:12:35] That’s atypical because universities typically embrace something called shared governance, which is this idea of kind of a back and forth between the faculty and the administration and the staff and students for that matter to make sure everyone’s kind of on the same page when the university is going about its procedures. And some of the processes for shared governance were weakened with a law that was passed in Texas in 2025 called Senate Bill 37. UT doesn’t have a faculty council anymore and some of the quote unquote normal mechanisms of communication between presidents and faculty have been disrupted. It’s unusual experts told me in this case for a professor not to know why they were denied tenure because it’s such a significant decision to their career. This professor will have to leave UT at the end of next year. He’ll have to start this process a new one at a different university. Uproot his family, likely move. And for him to do that and say, I have no idea why my employer didn’t give me tenure and they won’t tell me, is just a very unusual position to put a faculty member in.
Jerry Quijano [00:13:47] This seems like an extraordinary circumstance that Charlo Lopez is going through, but your story starts by saying that he was a, quote, shoe-in for tenure here at the university. You ran through a little bit of the process. What level of approval did he get in that process before he was ultimately denied tenure?
Lily Kepner [00:14:03] His last level of approval was the dean. And typically the dean, this is what the experts I spoke to told me, they said that if a dean thought that somebody might not be approved for tenure at the presidential level because of something in their scholarship, they would go back to that department chair or that professor and say, hey, like looks like a good case, but I think you need this, let’s start over next year. And so for a dean to say that this person not only met standards but exceeded standards for tenure and confidently recommend them to the president level for it to be denied was very atypical.
Jerry Quijano [00:14:41] The decision happened as university is grappling with its identity it’s something that you’ve written about extensively what are some of the changes that have happened like just say in the last year.
Lily Kepner [00:14:50] In the last year, the university has received a compact from the federal government and neither said yes or no to it. They also have consolidated their ethnic studies and women and gender studies programs into one new department of social and cultural analysis that’ll open in the fall. They’ve adopted a controversial policy. Restriction at the system level saying that professors shouldn’t veer into controversial topics that are outside of their subject matter expertise without defining what controversial topics are. And they’ve also removed at least two leaders for differences in vision or ideological reasons and instituted a whole host of new leaders.
Jerry Quijano [00:15:46] Is there anything about the story that I haven’t asked you about or maybe you know it has garnered a lot of attention but is there an aspect of the story that hasn’t maybe been as at the at the attention forefront that is sticking out to you.
Lily Kepner [00:15:58] I think one thing that stands out to me about this case is that, you know, this is certainly something that’s, you now, unusual to happen at a university, but it’s a decision that affects Professor Shar Lopez’s life and it affects what students at this university will be able to learn and it effects what research will be be able have in this state. He did groundbreaking research and I say groundbreaking in quotes because that’s what experts in his field say about how the government surveils the border, how that surveillance is connected to history and historic racism, and his work is very innovative and very, very topical. And so for his work to not be allowed to continue at UT, to me, is a loss for Texas of that research that is really the purpose of a university to pursue these more. You know, perhaps controversial topics, but ones that have a great matter of consequence for all Americans
Jerry Quijano [00:17:04] All right, we have been speaking with Lily Kepner. She had the story first, and she is the higher education reporter at the Austin American Statesman. We’re gonna have a link to her story in today’s podcast, Show Notes. Lily, thank you.
Lily Kepner [00:17:15] Thank you.
Jerry Quijano [00:17:17] And a final heads up, KUT journalists are University of Texas employees. University leaders do not review or approve KUT’s news coverage. And we have a much longer conversation with Professor Ivan Charlopes in an Austin Signal podcast exclusive. You can find that at kut.org slash signal or wherever you listen to your shows. We have more Austin signal coming up in just a moment. Heads up out there, it’s gonna be a hot week, high temperatures forecast in the 100s every single day this week. So stay cool and keep an eye out for your neighbors and keep it tuned in right here to KUT for the latest. This is Austin Signal, welcome back. Tiny Sounds is an Austin-based collective that supports independent bands by booking all-ages shows, and they do so in non-traditional spaces. It’s all built on a budget-free DIY philosophy. For KUT’s Art Beat, Ella Kopekin takes us there.
Ella Kopeikin [00:18:36] A crowd files into Alienated Majesty books in North Campus on a Thursday night. Mics and amps are crammed into a back corner. People find spots to stand between shelves. This isn’t an author reading. They’re here to watch people make me make things play for the last time.
KUT Announcer: Laurie Gallardo [00:19:08] Oh
Ella Kopeikin [00:19:11] The show features sets from the puppet company Puppet Bucket, the emo band Woodcutters, and folk act Bad Luck Penny. The one-man project Fishboy performs a few wholesome songs about characters in a fictional neighborhood.
Lily Kepner [00:19:23] Wondering down the path until at last I see a small box Tucked with vines and leaves on top
Ella Kopeikin [00:19:30] It’s all hands on deck. Band members borrow gear, work sound and door, and join the audience to support each other’s sets. Juniper Card is a lead singer in Bad Luck Penny.
Juniper Card [00:19:41] I think a lot of us have maybe not felt very accepted perhaps in other spaces and DIY kind of gives us that ability to just express ourselves in whatever way that we want and to make the music that we wanna make.
Ella Kopeikin [00:20:02] Shows like these have become common at Alienated Majesty thanks to the store’s partnership with the DIY booker Tiny Sounds. Matt Zuniga is one of the founders.
Matt Zuniga [00:20:12] Tiny Sounds is a DIY collective. We primarily work with torn bands that help them get shows here in Austin. We work with a lot of like houses and bookstores, different places where we can do shows in non-traditional spaces.
Ella Kopeikin [00:20:27] DIY or do-it-yourself shows are put on with no budget by musicians and any friends fans or volunteers They can wrangle to help folks like the tiny sounds team
Matt Zuniga [00:20:37] So we never take cuts from our shows. We work and try to build the scene, but we’re not trying to profit off it. There’s not a lot of money in DIY and I think once everyone starts taking a cut, there’s really not much left for the traveling bands. And because we primarily work with touring bands, it’s important to us that we stay away from that.
Ella Kopeikin [00:20:55] DIY shows offer a chance for smaller, unconventional acts to find their community. Bands and scenes like emo, hardcore, punk, and noise that don’t appeal to big venues or a mainstream audience. Suniga launched Tiny Sounds in 2022 with some friends, including the founder of People Make Me Make Things, Peyton Hynek. They wanted to promote and keep a record of bands they were watching and playing in.
Matt Zuniga [00:21:19] Tiny Sounds really did start off as just documentation with live sets from some of the house venues that were existing back in 2022 and started with videos on our YouTube page and photos on the Instagram.
Ella Kopeikin [00:21:34] Later that year, Suniga and the group moved in together. They used the Tiny Sounds Instagram to book and announce lineups for shows in their new space. They called it Arnold House. The team discovered touring bands with a more DIY sensibility were having a hard time finding venues to play in Austin. Meanwhile, local bands in those genres weren’t being discovered outside the city. Arnold House and Tiny Sounds became a way to bridge that gap.
Matt Zuniga [00:22:00] I wish the city had more all-age venues. Not all bands have pool with people that are older than 21. We’re sort of trying to leave that torch to help these bands grow. And so that the touring bands can come and see what we have in Austin. That’s really cool.
Ella Kopeikin [00:22:15] In March 2023, Tiny Sounds threw Philly Cheese Skate Fest. The event celebrated skateboarding and Philly cheese steaks. The group booked vendors and put a skate ramp in the backyard of Arnold House. There was a day-long lineup of music from all over the country.
Matt Zuniga [00:22:31] We had like a hundred people at our house. We made cheese steaks ourselves and hosted a bunch of punk and emo bands. And that was really the first show that we really did. That was big and successful.
Ella Kopeikin [00:22:41] After the fest, Tiny Sounds started hearing from more bands, booking more shows, and reaching more people. They had grown beyond hosting all their shows at Arnold House, but another regular all-age fee-free venue was hard to come by. Then, in summer 2023, Alienated Majesty opened. Suniga believed the leftist beliefs of the shop overlapped with the goals of Tiny downs.
Matt Zuniga [00:23:04] Everyone at Alien and Majesty is paid very much a living wage. There’s no bosses or managers. They believe the musicians and the band’s playing should get all the door money. And it’s the same with Tiny Sounds.
Ella Kopeikin [00:23:16] He became the main booker, helping to organize author talks and readings, but he mainly hosts tiny sound shows. The store turned into the Collective’s new home base. Michelle Zhang is the PR and marketing bookseller for Alienated Majesty. She’s also a violinist, Tiny Sounds member, and Suniga’s fianc-
Michelle Zhang [00:23:34] We kind of adopted that screamo and punk have always been on the left side of music for all of music history and that’s something that we really embody here at the shop. Today, Tiny Sound.
Ella Kopeikin [00:23:48] Has over 6,000 followers on Instagram. Sonega says that popularity comes from the group encouraging people to participate in shows.
Matt Zuniga [00:23:56] Everyone can get involved even if they don’t play music. And that goes from like running door to running sound and making sure we have equipment, drawing our own stuff, friends drawing their own art. It’s completely DIY in those aspects.
Ella Kopeikin [00:24:09] The team wants to make sure fans feel just as celebrated as artists.
Michelle Zhang [00:24:13] Here’s Zhong again. Tiny Sounds has always felt like there has been equal value given to people playing the show as people watching the show.
Ella Kopeikin [00:24:22] By making everyone feel included, the collective has built its own community within the city’s music scene. Michael White is a Tiny Sounds artist and long time fan.
Michael White [00:24:31] It’s easier to strike up conversations and foster new friendships to tiny sound shows.
Ella Kopeikin [00:24:37] The core of Tiny Sounds is to make music not just entertaining, but accessible.
Michael White [00:24:41] Music and magic should be for everybody. If you can lower the barriers to entry for participation and enjoyment as much as you can, that’s how you foster a community that is vibrant and welcoming.
Ella Kopeikin [00:24:54] For KUT’s Art Beat, I’m Ella Copaican in Austin.
Jerry Quijano [00:25:01] And just a quick few headlines before we get out of here today. Austin FC Academy players are under investigation for sexual abuse. MLS Academy players are being investigated for youth on youth sexual abuse stemming from complaints last December. And the city has extended the ban on Lady Bird Lake in the Colorado River south of Longhorn Dam until 5 p.m. Today. That’s because of ongoing floodgate operations after torrential rains and flooding from earlier this month. Well, that’s it for us today here on Austin Signal. We’re gonna be back at the same time tomorrow. We’ll talk to you then. Have a great day out there.
This transcript was transcribed by AI, and lightly edited by a human. Accuracy may vary. This text may be revised in the future.
