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December 1, 2024

Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee (Ep. 01, 2025)

By: John L. Hanson

On this edition of In Black America, producer and host John L, Hanson, Jr. presents a tribute to the lives of the late Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee, one of the most revered couples of the American stage and screen, whose careers spanned six decades and were distinguished for their work as actors and as activists. The interview was conducted in 1998, upon publication of their autobiography, In This Life Together.

The full transcript of this episode of In Black America is available on the KUT & KUTX Studio website. The transcript is also available as subtitles or captions on some podcast apps.

Announcer From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America.

Ossie Davis That was the young man organizing the march named by Bayard Rustin. And when Bayard called people know what you did, there were no, you couldn’t say no. Bayard was a, first he was Dr. King’s lieutenant, but he had the capacity to organize hundreds of thousands of people. And when he has a plan and a program, you know, he called you and he tells you how the whole thing depends on you. If you don’t show up, you won’t go what you supposed to. The whole thing is going to collapse and it’s going to be blamed on you. Bayard reached out to me and to Ruby and just said, we need somebody to emcee the first part of the program in the March on Washington while the people are assembling. There needs to be entertainment and we need somebody to sort of keep it going. So, Ruby, you and I see you selected.

John L. Hanson Jr. The late Ossie Davis. For seven decades, Davis led a distinguished career as an actor, writer, director and producer, along with his beloved wife, Ruby Dee. He was a renowned civil rights activist and an unforgettable figure in the African-American struggle for equality. In 1946, he began his acting career in Harlem. He made his film debut in 1950, in the Sidney Poitier film No Way Out. Davis experienced many of the same struggles that most African-American actors of his generation underwent. He wanted to act, but did not want to play stereotypical subservient roles such as Butler, that were the standard for African-American actors of his generation. Instead, he tried to follow the example of Fortune and played more distinguished characters when he found it necessary to play a pullman, porter or a butler. He tried to inject the roles, a certain degree of dignity. In 1998, Davis and Ruby Dee published their dual autobiography, In This Life Together. In celebration of their 50th wedding anniversary on February 4th, 2005, Davis was found dead in Miami, where he was making a movie. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program Ossie and Ruby In This Life Together, In Black America.

Ossie Davis In the Hollywood Entertainment Industry Syndrome Professional Hour, an actor is looked on as a celebrity, as a commodity, and is taught to teach the public to worship himself by herself as an object of divine whatever. And if you begin to consider only yourself, if your self is your only object, then all other things will begin to fall away from you. You have to learn in this business that your self cannot be your only object. You have to say myself and my wife and my children. Those are the things that mean the most to me. Now, I don’t care what fame does, or celebrity does. That’s where I will be going. And that’s why I stake my claim. You have to be tough and say, I’m going to make this marriage work, because if I lose this one, the only thing I can do is get another, which will be just like it. So I’m going to make this one work.

John L. Hanson Jr. Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee were one of the most revered couples of the American stage. Two of the most prolific and fearless artists in American culture. As individual and as a team, they created profound and lasting work that has touched all of us with courage and tenacity. They often broke new ground for African-Americans and opened many a door previously shut ties to African-American artists. This generation may recognize Davis and Dee for their appearances in several Spike Lee movies, including Malcolm X, in which Davis played himself having delivered the eulogy for the slain civil rights leader. Born on December 18th, 1970, in Cox Dale, Georgia, the oldest of five children. Davis grew up in Waycross, Georgia, on December 9th, 1948. Davis and Ruby Dee were married in 1950. They made their film debut in No Way Out with Sidney Poitier and then starred together on Broadway in A Raisin in the Sun. In honoring this legendary couple and celebrating the birthday of Davis In Black America presents this rebroadcast of a 1998 interview regarding the publication of their dual autobiography.

Ruby Dee I finally prepared to write this book, and after 50 years later, you know, and so we we finished that. Williams is publishing it. We’re and it chronicles our lives lives and before we when about our lives before we met each other when we met and also our time up until now.

John L. Hanson Jr. One seems to forget that all of us are human beings under our stardom or whatever our vocation. Was it difficult in going back and reliving those early years?

Ossie Davis Not not, not difficult in an emotional sense. Sometimes it was that, too. It was that. But what what was difficult was that we found that we had different memories, often of the same thing.

John L. Hanson Jr. The same thing.

Ossie Davis & Ruby Lee And sometimes we couldn’t reconcile our differences. So I wrote my version. Ruby wrote her version, made the best can contest and emerged triumphant. And then sometimes this conversation sometimes is in dialog. Then we take chapters. The format kind of kind of varies, you know, like that. Like life does.

John L. Hanson Jr. How long did it take you to put this work together?

Ossie Davis & Ruby Lee Two solid years. Well, I would ask you, as it was this hour, because in between that we were working, one of us would be a way. And that got us is the writer in the family. They kind of kept us on track. And we were working with a wonderful one, you know, Sydney Malone, who might known as a dramaturg. And so and and others helping us with research. So that was where and our children sometimes, especially my daughter Nora, helping us with the memories when they were small. And so it was a that helped a great deal. But so but I have to I just had to quarrel a little bit with that word salad. And also those times when we we had some disagreements about this and that, but we never came to blows and we never came to blows.

John L. Hanson Jr. Mr. Davies, are you still your own editor and censor?

Ossie Davis I am still my own editor and censor. But I found that there are a lot of people have gotten into the act so that it’s me and a whole board of directors telling me what to do.

John L. Hanson Jr. Tell our audience how you met in 1948.

Ossie Davis & Ruby Lee Well, now let’s go over in a minute here. Yes. We were both involved in a play, a play called Gyp. And we met at the New Amsterdam Theater on 42nd Street in New York. Yes. Is that where the Atlantic is now? Yeah. That first day at rehearsal. And it didn’t seem extraordinary to me at all. And I’m on board as an understudy. Yeah. And I know I had seen his picture in the paper, but I had met him. But I didn’t even like it because I had wanted some other people I knew from the American Negro Theater that the theater, the community theater where I got into business or any one of those one of those guys to get the lead. So I was really very disappointed. And then when I saw him, it was even worse because I thought, he looks so peculiar. I was just. And isn’t that nice at the auditorium? And I kind of talk about it, you know, because he was this tall, skinny guy that looked like he looked like this kind of with this big Adam’s apple that went up and down when he talked. And he kind of spilled them all out of his and they hung out of his clothes. The closer to two, you know, that this tall, skinny guy wearing the clothes of this short, fat man. I think it is the strictly from Harvard. But it didn’t seem to be self-conscious about anything. I have my mojo guy. But we agreed that he was a good actor, you know? And that’s how it all got started.

John L. Hanson Jr. You all have been very involved with the activism of this country. How has that parallel you all’s acting careers?

Ossie Davis & Ruby Lee Well, first, let me say that we have been involved in activism in our country. But you remember activism has been involved with us. We were born Black. And when we married in 1950 or 1948, I’m sorry. Being Black was not a happy state of affairs in this country. There were many places where people couldn’t vote. People were still getting lynched. Soldiers returning from the war were being killed if they lined up to vote. So when we came into the theater, we were already in the midst of the struggle of our people for dignity and work and freedom. We had no option. There was no way to get out of being Black, you know. So you had to get back down and struggle. And also our parents, I think about my mother walking picket lines in 1950. We went with her picketing the jobs in the stores where we couldn’t work or can only go there by we couldn’t we couldn’t own stores and not 25th Street. You know, that kind of activity since I remember and the poverty and that we were being put out on the street. So we were kind of born, both of us, from different parts of the country. And I remember on two occasions when my father’s life was threatened by the Ku Klux. Land. And on one occasion, we stayed up all night waiting for the clan to come. They didn’t come, but we got the message, you know. So struggle was always a part of who I was and a part of who Ruby was And all that was part of the marriage, too, because, yeah, we, you know that the times that we live in affect you in personal ways to I, I preceded women’s lib and as I look back that that affected me a lot because there was I had no way. Ways of thinking about what I thought was ailing me, what I felt was wrong with my being married and all that thing. You know, once I got used to it and I thought, this, this, this, this thing is unfair. This is it’s lopsided, you know, when it comes to to the involvement of women and men. And so the whole thing struck me as I and we got married. So through my as I began this quest, this scratching research and and as being a sensitive person and thank God we managed to scratch our way and move our way into another level of understanding as human beings, You know what I’m saying? But part of it, I think, Ruby, was because we knew how to struggle even with each other. We knew how to fight with each other. We knew how to try and arrive at some common truth that would embrace us both. And we had some marvelous examples when we came into the business. Paul Ropes in Canada, Lee’s beautiful young lady named Lena Horne out in Hollywood fighting, you know. So there were examples all along the way that led us into the struggle. And we found that the struggle was our mother, and they kept us so busy that we never had time to stop and ask ourselves if we were happy. You know, we didn’t have time for that. That was involved with were more important than any kind of like disagreements. That’s how it seemed to work out. We had so much to do where we had there was a common thing happening. Yeah. You know, to willing to spend on our personal things. Although we did, we managed to have a few long bouts, you know, going, yeah, we had a full personal life. But, you know, if you sit in front of the television and 1963 and you look at what is happening in Birmingham and the dogs snapping at children in the water was knocking people off their feet, you know, look at your wife and say, I wonder if I’m happy you get mad as hell and you want to do something about it, you know, so the struggle catches you up in it. It’s a part of who you are. And it certainly helped to keep us together and define who we were and what we had to do. In this life Struggle is the center of existence as far as we are concerned, and we intend to keep struggling until we die.

John L. Hanson Jr. How did you how happened to become the emcee of the March on Washington? In August 63rd.

Ossie Davis There was a young man organizing the march named Bayard Rustin. And when Bayad called, people know what you did, there was no you couldn’t say no. Bayard was a, first he was Dr. King’s lieutenant, but he had the capacity to organize hundreds of thousands of people. And when he has a plan and a program, you know, he called you and he told you how the whole thing depends on you. If you don’t show up and you don’t get what you you’re supposed to do, the whole thing is going to collapse and it’s going to be blamed on you by it reached out to me and to Ruby and just said, We need somebody to emcee the first part of the program in the March on Washington while the people are assembling. There needs to be entertainment and we need somebody to sort of keep it going. So, Ruby, you and I see you are selected.

John L. Hanson Jr. What was the feeling once you heard the I Have a Dream speech at the march?

Ossie Davis Well, it was I remember it was well, quite a million people there. And it had been a most exciting day. And believe it or not, there had been some other very exciting speeches, but that certainly was the one that topped them all. And we found ourselves after the speech just sort of hugging each other, crying, laughing and just feeling an explosion of joy in the bottom of our belly. Because Martin speak when he said, I have a dream, we knew he meant we have a dream and we knew that we had arrived.

John L. Hanson Jr. What has been the secret of these 50 years, if we could bottle it we could sell it.

Ossie Davis & Ruby Lee That’s true talent. Ruby Because I don’t know. I tell you the truth. I when people first used to ask that, especially young people in our travels, we can only give a flip and say, you know, is it well, we have managed to kill each other. Well, just do one day at a time. Well, just don’t go to bed mad. We think about things like that we did for a long time. But it occurred to us that. The gang boo boo asking serious questions. This relationship business is not easy. You know, there’s this how to be together. Man, woman, wife, sexual partner, a temptation, jealousy, envy, resentment. You know, all these things creep into our lives to one degree or another. You know? And if you’re lucky, in marriage, we finally concluded is a process. It’s not something that you you do. The wedding is something you do in a day. But marriage is something you do for the rest of your life every day, you know, around some issues. And I just feel it’s kind of a percentage game of theories. There are more things about around which you can agree and and can enjoy life than than than those things that well, which you want a divorce. And that marriage feels like it’s successful. The same thing with love. I thought I was in love when I first got married, but it wasn’t many years into the thing when I realized that I was feeling something that didn’t go didn’t belong with love. You know, we were going through some things that we’ve questions questioned a lot of times, and many times we have an argument as we wake up the next morning. And I would say, Well, do you wish you’d married so-and-so? You know, some question like that. And I and I get angry at the question. Or he would say, well, if you’re going to quit me, I’m going to go with you. So the one thing that saved us and in the rough times was a sense of humor. I tell you the truth, because we always eventually we found something to laugh at and to laugh about, you know, the ridiculousness of what the things that were upsetting us, especially after they passed and and the hope. And I know we used to get angry with him because I didn’t think he was a good fighter. I didn’t think he even had a hug. You very well. And I think there’s something about being able to argue constructively and creatively that sometimes it clear the air and and get some understand, because then sometimes we have a fight. And the next morning, as he would tell me that he understood something and eventually he began to feel with me about how I was feeling as a woman and being a very smart guy. He would read up on the subject. He thought about things, and he began to reevaluate women in me, his mother, women in general, that this whole woman is object question. The woman is intellect. Mind me, as a person capable of being of use in his work, and it useful to him as a sounding board. I’m a good collaborator, but I had to kind of fight my way into his consciousness. I had to move beyond just being a woman. I had. I mean, so, you know, this this this marriage business is not easy, but we’re hoping that this book will give young married some some some idea, you know, some because we wait for for instance, we study everything in school. But relationships, those important thing we there’s no compulsory course on marriage or title rearing or anything like that that affects us. We have to learn by trial and error. And if you’re lucky, you hang together through the rough times and not think that every challenge is an end now and marriage is really what you make it. You have to make what it is you want. Now, in the Hollywood Entertainment Industry Syndrome, a of a professional or an actor is looked on as a celebrity, as a commodity, and is taught to teach the public to worship himself or herself as an object of divine whatever. And if you begin to consider only yourself, if your self is your only object, then all other things will begin to fall away from you. You have to learn in this business that your self cannot be your only object. You have to say, myself and my wife and my children. Those are the things that mean the most to me. And I don’t care what fame does, a celebrity does. That’s where I will be going. And that’s why I stake my claim. You have to be tough and say, I’m going to make this marriage work, because if I lose this one, the only thing I can do is get another, which will be just like it. So I might going to make this one work.

John L. Hanson Jr. And you all work with Malcolm X a day or two days before his untimely assassination. Give us a little insight into the man.

Ossie Davis Well, I think the last time we saw him.

John L. Hanson Jr. Which was at you alls home.

Ossie Davis Was not too long before he left us. He did come to our house by himself and just Ruby, me, and Malcolm sat and we just listened and let him talk. And what was very apparent was. That this dedicated, very brilliant, very strong character, a very spiritual man, had one thing that hurt him more than anything else, and that was his estrangement from his father figure, Elijah Muhammad. He never really got over that. And so all of the things that we admired him for, we knew about and probably knew about. But when he sat down to talk and he talked and talked, we could see a young man, a boy reaching out for a father who was no longer there. And that’s the in the center central core of my memories of Malcolm.

John L. Hanson Jr. Ms. Dee.

Ruby Dee I don’t know, I, I sort of I thought of what racism does to us. We’re all affected by it. And I think particularly Black men and particularly and women who in other areas like women. But this and that. His struggle against against being against being relegated to negative, as he talks about in the in in the book, this thing that unfortunately happens in our culture with that it seems to be like a constant problem is how do we reach through racism and love each other. And then Malcolm, was that that that that attempt for manhood that I see heard about that reached toward that for all of us. All of us. You thought he he carried with it with him all the time and yet he was had a beautiful vulnerability and a nice sense of humor with a crooked smile, you know, And he but I think he had a he he was thrust in a direction that was uniform. That was more than just himself. He was a person sitting sitting here. I met him through my brother Edward. But he was I mean, he transformed my brother. And their families are very close. And then but he was a man who was he was a public he was a personification of Black men in struggle. And so he couldn’t he is personal. Life was second as second. The second even there, I’m saying these people who walk the earth, who they come here for more than themselves, they they come here to live for a lot of people just to be part of their their aspiration. And and the thrust is.

John L. Hanson Jr. Is there a greater appreciation? I’m quite sure you love both venues, stage and film.

Ruby Dee Well, I personally prefer the stage because I am a writer and I find that writing for the stage means that you write a work that will exist and its own terms as long as printing exists. Unfortunately, the work that you do on film will not necessarily exist. Nobody who goes and reads a film script, and unless somebody takes care to preserve the film, it could very well disappear. So for me, since I’m a writer, stage is my first love. Well, I can’t say that I have a definite preference. I like them both for different reasons. I think there’s nothing like a stage for finding hitting the walls of yourself. You know, finding out what you’re all about, traveling the tracks, opening the pathways. And then you do it over and over every night on stage. So there’s a chance for growth and self examination and and use of your self over and over and over. That makes it easier to get to from one point to another. There’s this this practice is like going through the path in an uncleared forest. The more you try to tread it, the, the the smoother and more definite it gets. That’s what I think the theater does. It explores the bigness of you and the wildness and deepness of you, of yourself, and helps you to become a better actor on film. Where you’re looking with the camera seems to photograph thoughts and emotions and ideas and, you know, the subtleties with the camera can get get there greater, I think, than than on stage. But but the but the but I think you grow more in on stage than you do in film. Although there are film actors who mastered that technique and are just as efficient there as that, I mean, just span them both. I think the stage stage work is a necessary part of the training process, you know?

John L. Hanson Jr. Have you all adapted Spike Lee?

Ruby Dee Not officially, but we’re working on it. He’s adopted us, I think. I have no idea. I know I have. I feel a I think it’s like kind of brought me into a new to the attention of a new new generation or something, you know. And also through our son who and also I think spoke to a lot of people in the business yet something about integrity and. And I thought he did the film the Deltas, the Delta Sigma Theta D, the first one he just did, he made a film by by the Bootstrap, you know, he just did it. And that’s what the Deltas did with that film. We made Delta Cassini, and he gave credit to all the people who helped him, and he took $5, 500 and a thousand. And my son happened to be our son, happened to be one of the investors. So I love Spike for that. He brought people into the union where with the union, you know, is that known for being. Yeah. You know, it’s kind of it has a lot to do in terms of the racism and spike that worked on that front, too. Everybody worked for Spike, you know, men, women, Black, white, Asians, the physically challenged all those. And Spike is a conscientious young man growing philosophically. And so, I mean, A is the most exciting person that around that that I’ve known. You know.

John L. Hanson Jr. You all have worked in virtually all the media, radio, television, film, stage and in new projects on the horizon.

Ossie Davis & Ruby Lee Well, Ruby has a couple of films in the can. Yeah, the passing or passing game? The Passing Glory. Yes. And where were Quincy Jones was one of the producers. And David Salzman and Mike Mack. Magic Johnson and just did that. It’s a it’s a basketball film with a brewer. And the next one is the baby genius. With that one is before then various baby geniuses that’s coming out. We’re down to Louise. That was fun for me because I love doing those kind of kind of coconuts. Could I get one in there? Yes. All right. And I did one with Della Reese called The Secret Path, which has yet to show up. Meanwhile, we have other projects that we’ll be working on.

John L. Hanson Jr. The late Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee, If you have questions, comments or suggestions as to a future In Black America programs email us at In Black America at kut.org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. Don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook and X. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. Also, you can listen to a special collection of In Black America programs and American Archive of Public Broadcasting. That’s americanarchives.org.  The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week.

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This transcript was transcribed by AI, and lightly edited by a human. Accuracy may vary. This text may be revised in the future.