austin

This week, In Black America producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. speaks with Glen Crawley, co-owner, with Kenny Garth, of ATX Hello Tours, a rare African American-owned helicopter tour service, located in Pflugerville, a suburb of Austin, Texas.

Intro music [00:00:08] The In Black America theme music, an instrumental by Kyle Turner.

Announcer [00:00:08] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America.

Glen Crawley [00:00:23] The high school that he went to was Air Force ROTC. So he did that. I got to see him come home in his uniform. And then when he went off to to the academy here in San Antonio, he sent back a picture of him standing next to a fighter jet. And in my mind, he was a superhero. You know, I’m I’m still in junior high. He’s he’s standing next to a fighter jet and I’m like, oh, my God, my brother’s awesome. So he kind of set me on that path to want to be, to leave the ground basically in class, something.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:00:52] Crawley, co-owner of ATX Heli Tours, located in Pflugerville, Texas, a northern suburb of Austin, Texas, and 2017, Crawley, along with his partner Kenny Goff, opened the helicopter tour company. Crawley and Goff both met while they were in flight school, preparing to take their flight test before receiving their licenses. Their instructor thought that they might pair up and split the cost of the flight. Crowley had always wanted to fly because of his brother and Goff’s partner, who was an aircraft mechanic, trash-talked his way into the sky. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, less than 3% of the nation’s commercial pilots are African American. Both of them hope to change this by showing their passion for flying. They want to encourage others, especially young people, that they, too, can become pilots. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. And welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, ATX Heli Tours with the co-owner Glen Crawley, In Black America.

Glen Crawley [00:01:57] We wanted to lease a helicopter one day. I had spoken to the owner of the business and he said that I could and then the message didn’t get back to the school and the school wouldn’t allow us to take one of the helicopters. And then Kenny kind of got upset about that. He was like, look, this is the last time we’re going to have to ask anybody to borrow anything. So let’s just buy our own helicopter. And in my mind, I’m thinking we can’t afford a helicopter, but they are super expensive. So he was like, we’re going to figure it out. So we just started looking around and we met this really nice business guy who who owned his own helicopter, but he just didn’t have time to fly it. And now he’s a really good friend of ours. And his name’s Ed Mouser. He pretty much let us pay a third of his helicopter upfront. And then he said he would self-finance the rest of it. So he already owned it outright. And so he self-financed the rest of it. And that’s how we were able to get this helicopter..

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:02:46] ATX Heli Tours offer a view of Austin, Texas never seen before. They say one should never have to sacrifice durability for beauty and comfort. They helicopters have a closed cockpit with air conditioning and leather seats. Open in 2017 Crowley and his partner, Kenny Goff, have flown hundreds of customers since then. Their tours range from 10 minutes to an hour long tour all across the city. Born in Memphis, Tennessee, he grew up in Montgomery, Alabama. Glen Crawley is an engineer with Freescale in XP. His partner, Kenny Goff, is an aircraft mechanic. They met in flight school. Little did they know one day they will own their own helicopter to a company. In the beginning, they were reluctant in fear that the public might not respond knowing the company was owned by African-Americans. That fear has been laid to rest. As the company grows, they want to establish partnerships with schools with the intent on exposing young people to the joys of flying. Recently In Black America spoke with Glen Crawley.

Glen Crawley [00:03:53] I was born in Memphis, Tennessee. I grew up primarily in Montgomery, Alabama, and so I spent most of my formative years in Montgomery, Alabama. And after college, I moved down to Florida to start my first job in the high tech industry, where I still work part time today. And so I I’ve worked in this industry for almost 29 years, and for the last two and a half to three years, I’ve had this helicopter tour business that I do because I have three or four days off per week and I’m able to to operate the business on my off days. I have a business partner as well. And so we we kind of share duties. So when I’m working, he takes care of the business and when I’m off, I cover the business and we work together. So that’s what I do. But yeah, primarily I grew up in in the South and I’ve been in Texas, here in Austin for about 25 years. So I always say that I’ve been here long enough to consider this home. I’ve lived in Austin longer than anywhere else, so I’m an Austinite, I would say.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:52] Any brothers and sisters?

Glen Crawley [00:04:53] Oh, yeah. I’m the youngest of five. I have one brother and three sisters. So I’ve, you know, I’ve been fortunate enough to be the younger, you know, some people. I mean, I see that as a benefit, but it was rough, I could say that. But I have had the opportunity to watch my siblings do things and learn from what they did some good, some of the mistakes they made, you know? I didn’t have to make a lot of mistakes myself. I was able to learn from others mistakes, so they didn’t make a lot of mistakes. I mean, we were raised pretty well. But, you know, I learned how not to get into trouble. But my brother, seven years older, he was really my I would say my mentor source always, because he never did anything wrong. I mean, he he did everything right. I mean, he’s you know, it’s hard to follow this guy, but he did everything right. So I had no excuse really for doing anything wrong because he never showed me that. He only showed me what was right. So I had, uh, I had my brother to look up to and follow behind. He went the route of, uh, the Air Force. He was in Junior ROTC in high school. The high school that he went to was Air Force ROTC. So he did that. So I got to see him come home in his uniform. And then when he went off to to the academy here in San Antonio, he sent back a picture of him standing next to a fighter jet. And in my mind, he was a superhero. You know, I’m still in junior high and he’s he’s standing next to a fighter jet and I’m like, oh, my God, my brother’s awesome. So. So he kind of set me on that path to want to be to leave the ground, basically, and fly something.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:23] And what college did you attend?

Glen Crawley [00:06:25] I went to a tech school and I’m in Birmingham, Alabama. You know, I went there at at a tech school there and the University of Alabama in Birmingham as well. So I knew I wanted to do education because growing up in my household and just everyone around, they knew that after high school they would have to go do something right. There was no just get out of high school, hang around a neighborhood because that wasn’t the best environment, you know, to be hanging around in. And so we knew that after high school we would have to go do something. And so I couldn’t wait, really. I wanted to get out of town. So I went to Birmingham, Alabama, to school there, and then straight out of out of out of school. I went straight to Florida and the Palm Bay Melbourne area. Right. And started my my career in the high tech industry. So Motorola brought me to to Austin. So I started working here for Motorola. Then the name change to Freescale, then in XP. So, um, but I’ve always wanted to fly. It’s been my passion forever, just wanting to, uh, to fly a helicopter. So I got the opportunity to do so and I haven’t looked back.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:33] Oh, I heard that. How did you and Kenny meet?

Glen Crawley [00:07:35] I met Kenny in flight school, actually. Kenny’s my business partner. Of course he, uh, he he is a chance, I’d say he’s a chance taker, but he definitely saw something we wanted. First of all, we were leasing helicopters after we finished flight school. We were leasing helicopters from the place where we went to school. And so we would lease helicopters and go do flying around, just personal flying. And then he one day said that, uh, we should buy own helicopter, and it wasn’t because he thought that we could. It was because we wanted to lease a helicopter. One day I spoken to the owner of the business and he said that I could and then the message didn’t get back to the school, and the school wouldn’t allow us to take one of the helicopters. And then Kenny kind of got upset about that. He was like, look, this is the last time we’re going to have to ask anybody to borrow anything. So let’s just buy our own helicopter. And in my mind, I’m thinking we can’t afford a helicopter, but they are super expensive. So he was like, we’re gonna figure it out. So we just started looking around and we met this really nice business guy who who owned his own helicopter, but he just didn’t have time to fly it. And now he’s a really good friend of ours. And his name’s Ed Mouser. He he pretty much let us pay a third of his helicopter upfront. And then he said he self-financed the rest of it, so he already owned it outright and so he self-financed the rest of it. And that’s how we were able to get this helicopter. Our hats off to Ed Mouser couldn’t couldn’t couldn’t be here without him.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:00] Give us an idea what the flight instruction and training looks to fly a helicopter.

Glen Crawley [00:09:06] Well, to fly a helicopter, I could tell you, is difficult. It’s difficult. It is. It’s not very similar to flying an airplane. I mean, the communications over the radio is the same, but all of the controls inside the helicopter is totally different. It’s a lot more intense, I would say, to fly a helicopter because you’re using all of your extremities, your right foot, left foot, right hand, left hand. They’re all doing something different and all simultaneous. So you’re doing all these things based on what the winds are doing and what the weather conditions are. So when you just trying to hover right above the ground, that’s the most intense time for a helicopter pilot because it’s a heavy workload, trying to keep the helicopter stable in an aircraft. You basically for an airplane, you just need forward air speed and, you know, you lower the flaps or whatever if you come in for a landing and then and then it comes down. Once you’re on the ground, you’re pretty much, you know, having to do a whole lot with the controls. You just you control the throttle more or less just to move it forward. But a helicopter is very, very intense in the training and it takes a long time. There’s a lot of a lot to learn. And depending on how much free time you have to put in the study time, it could be extended out for quite a bit of time to get the the training in, to get to where you get certified.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:16] That was my next question. How long did it take you all, take you, to obtain your license?

Glen Crawley [00:10:22] Well, for me, it took a while because I had a I had a kid right in the middle of it so the expense to do it, I didn’t have because I had child care. You know, $1,000 a month primarily. And so I didn’t have the extra money to continue the training. So I had to stop training for a while, then go back to it and finish it later. So for me, it took a few years to finish it. But you can finish, I would say, if you had time to dedicate two or three flight training sessions per week, you probably could finish it in about 6 to 8 months, I would say.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:54] I understand that Glenn is an aircraft mechanic?

Glen Crawley [00:10:58] No, Kenny is an aircraft mechanic. He’s a certified AMP mechanic and he’s also a pilot. So he works on aircraft, but it’s more of a civilian style of aircraft, But he works on the aircraft that supplies, I guess, gear supplies to the military. So he’s in Afghanistan for two months out of the year, about two months, and he comes back for two months. So he’s out of the country for two months and he comes back. But while he’s over there, he works on aircraft that helps with the support for the military. So he’s flying in supplies for the military, but it’s not a military aircraft. So he works over there as a civilian on aircraft that supply things for the military. And so he’s a he’s a helicopter pilot as well, and he’s a amp mechanic so he can work on our helicopter. So saves us quite a bit of money having someone who’s also a mechanic and a pilot so we don’t have to really go outside and pay someone else to work on the aircraft because we have our own in-house mechanic for that.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:54] I understand. If you’re just joining us, I’m John L. Hanson Jr., and you’re listening to In Black America from KUT Radio. We’re speaking with Glen Crawley, co-owner of ATX Heli Tours, located in Pflugerville, Texas. Glen is one thing to, you know, fly a helicopter leisurely on your spare time, but it’s another thing to open up a business. What led you all to this endeavor?

Glen Crawley [00:12:19] Well, for one, we wanted to bring Austin something that they didn’t have. Okay. There was I think there was another helicopter tour company here. But what we wanted to provide was something that was a little bit different, a little bit better, and a little bit more, uh, luxurious, I would say. So what we offer is something that’s a little bit better. Our customer service is most important to us. So we come in, we want to make sure that the customer is happy and we want their tour experience to be the very best that it could possibly be. So we make sure that we give them a little bit more than they expect. So for anyone wanting a tour, it doesn’t even matter which tour you select. If you choose to have champagne or you need flowers for your mate or whoever, you just let us know that ahead of time and we’ll make sure we get those for you. There’s no extra charge for that. We just wanted to be the very best to experience. We had a guy call us up and he said, Hey, man, I don’t I don’t really have much money, but I love my I love my girlfriend and I want to treat her special I don’t have much money. So we have a tour for $59 per person. He bring her out for that tour. We’ll have chocolates for her, we’ll have champagne for you guys. And we’ll have flowers. So we don’t charge you for that. Just bring her out. We’ll make her feel special. So he brought her out. We gave her all those things. And of course, he got high fives and kudos all day because he’s the best boyfriend in the world now. Right? But he only had $120 to spare. But he still got all of that with his $120 tour package. So that’s that’s kind of what we do. That’s an entry level tour that we have at $59 per person, and it goes up as high as $300 per person. But, you know, we just want everyone to feel special. So we want the the experience to be the very best that it could be. So that’s what we brought to this town, that it didn’t have.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:04] What are the other type of tours that you all provide?

Glen Crawley [00:14:07] Okay. We provide the the the entry level tours that we have as a tour that goes over Pflugerville. Since we are located in Pflugerville, there’s a lake right there in Pflugerville. And so we fly primarily from our airport in Pflugerville to Lake Pflugerville, and it flies over. That’s about a 8 to 10 minute tour, and that’s the one that is $59 per person. And it flies over lake Pflugerville and then over Typhoon, Texas. There’s a little water park over there. So just to get the initial feel for what it’s like to be in the helicopter, that’s that’s our entry level flight. And then we have our next level flight that goes over to downtown Austin, and that is a 20 minute flight. It goes over downtown Austin, Mount Bonnell over to the Penny Becker Bridge and then back to Austin, executive. And that tour is $125 per person for a 20 minute tour. And then we have the next tour that goes out to Lake Travis. So it goes over the same places as a 20 minute tour, but then it extends out to Lake Travis over the Oasis restaurant, and it flies over Lago Vista and then over Mansfield Dam and then back to to, uh, an executive airport in Pflugerville. And that tour is like I say, that’s. A 30 minute tour, and that tour is $175 per person. And then we have another tour that is a 1 hour tour. And that tour is 20, I mean, to $299 per person. And it does all of those same things, but it stays out over lake Pflugerville for a much longer time. It goes all the way out to almost Pace Bend Park, almost to the end of Lake Travis out there. So it goes out for a long ways and you’re out. You’re in the air for exactly one hour. And as to $299 per person for that tour. So we try to have a tour for whatever your budget is and for whatever you need. We just want to want everyone to be happy.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:54] What makes these type tours special? Hovering over over the city.

Glen Crawley [00:15:59] To get the vantage point of, uh, of a bird more or less, just being the bird’s eye view over the city. It’s really hard to explain how how beautiful that is. I mean, I just flew a tour yesterday for two people who had never been in a helicopter before. And there it was, the guy’s birthday, and his girlfriend was surprising him with the tour. And she just kept saying from the back seat, she just kept saying, this is unbelievable. This is just unbelievable. And she said, I know, I know you’re tired of hearing me say this, but is this true? I cannot believe how beautiful this is. And I said, like, I hear this all the time. I never get tired of hearing it. So I just say it as many times as you feel you need to. But it’s just a bird’s eye view that you can’t get any other way. It is beautiful when you’re flying above, when you’re flying above it all, and you can just look down to see everything so clearly. I mean, the helicopter, you can fly much lower, so you get to see everything. We tend to fly about 1000 feet to 1200 feet above the ground. So you can see everything clearly.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:55] Are there communications between you and, I would assume the the towers at Bergstrom International and the one at at Pflugerville as far as air traffic control?

Glen Crawley [00:17:08] Yes. Yes, sir. We have to communicate with air traffic control constantly. And that’s the only way to stay safe in the air. I know there are some pilots who prefer to fly where there is not a tower so they don’t have to talk to air traffic control. But speaking with air traffic control is the best way to to to say safe. But that way you can hear all of the aircraft, I mean, aircraft traffic and you can you can stay in constant contact. When you when we depart from Austin Executive, we switch over to Bergstrom air traffic control and call approach and we tell approach that we were going to fly over downtown Austin. They’ll give us what’s considered a squat code. You put that particular code in a transponder, and then you show up on their radar and you like a little beacon flashing on their street, on their screen so they can see exactly where you are. And not only that, but they’ll tell you where all the other aircraft are. So the aircraft is in your pad or heading in your direction, air traffic control will tell you that. They’ll tell you whether to climb in altitude or to go down or to go left or right or whatever. So it’s best to be on with air traffic control all the time. And that way they’ll keep you safe. So I talked to them from the time I depart Austin Executive Airport until like five miles out from Austin Executive. Then they’ll tell me to switch over to Austin Executive Tower and then talk to them until I hit the ground. So. So that’s what we do every time.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:26] Why a Pflugerville location was more convenient for you all.

Glen Crawley [00:18:31] Well, this funding available hangar space is an issue around here. So, you know, I got lucky enough that the previous owner of the aircraft already had it hangar and not an executive airport because you can’t even get hangar space out there. There’s so many guys wanting hangar is out there. They can’t get it because no one gives it up. Once you get it, you better keep it even if you don’t have an aircraft. Because if you think you may want to have aircraft again, you will never get that space back if you give it up. So we got lucky and we basically just took over the same hangar space that the previous owner had. So the aircraft never left. It stayed in the same spot. We just traded keys, I guess, but we, we still have the same hangar space at Austin Executive, it’s a beautiful, beautiful airport. So if you ever go out there, you’ll feel like you’re in a luxurious setting because Austin Executive airport is really, really nice compared to Bergstrom. I mean, it’s day and night difference.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:19:25] Obviously, the aircraft makes a difference. So what type of helicopter do you all fly?

Glen Crawley [00:19:30] We fly what’s considered the number one tour helicopter in the world. Its the Robinson R-44, Raven two. And the Raven two basically means that it has a fuel injected engine and usually has leather interior and it has air conditioning. So all of those things, you kind of need to be in Texes because for one, I couldn’t even imagine flying a helicopter with no air conditioning. But there are tons of helicopters out there without it because at the $20,000 option. So most most people don’t want to spend that. But I could tell you that if you had to bake in a helicopter, you wish you had that $20, $20,000 to spend, for sure. But yeah, we uh, we our helicopter is is a very reliable helicopter. There’s a lot of them out there. So there’s always available parts, you know, for this type of helicopter whenever you need to do service work done to. It’s easy enough to find the parts because there’s so many of these helicopters manufactured. And Robertson is an American helicopter maker out of California, so it’s easy enough to get parts for them any time you need them.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:27] How do you divide your time between your job and the helicopter business?

Glen Crawley [00:20:34] It really kind of, they kind of morph together whenever I’m at work and then I have any time away from the job, be it on breaks or whatever, I take the messages from the business, and if I need to return calls, I return calls. But whenever I’m off work from the the corporate job, I spend pretty much all of my time doing the the helicopter work. So the helicopter work is what I’m planning to do in the next phase of my working career. So as the business grows, once it’s able to replace the salary from my corporate job, I’ll phase out of the corporate job because my passion is helicopters. So I like dealing with people. I like meeting new people. And I just love flying helicopters. I absolutely love what I do. So for what I do, you must love your job. And that’s what I just I couldn’t imagine doing anything more.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:25] I understand. Speaking of of the future, where do you see the business maybe 5 to 10 years from now?

Glen Crawley [00:21:33] Well, what we see is being off site. Eventually, we would like to be offsite from Austin Executive Airport and have our own location where we have our own building and we have more control, you know, where we’re able to, you know, have toy helicopters for the kids, you know, give T-shirts away, sell T-shirts or sell merchandise or maybe even have like a bar there with food and alcohol or whatever. See, right now, we can’t do any of that because on their facility, it is not allowed. So we would like to be in a situation where we have our own control. So we would like to have our own building with multiple helicopters. Right now we only have one helicopter. We have access to another one that is not ours, but we would like to have at least five helicopters at some point and have them pretty much just flying all day long. So that is our goal. And if you’re going to dream you dream big, right, right. That’s what want.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:22:23] As a pilot of these tours, what are some of your favorite landmarks or location you like to show customers?

Glen Crawley [00:22:29] I love flying over downtown Austin and people love to see the stadium, the UT Tower and flying over the Capitol building. So it’s a phenomenal building, right? So people love to see it. And that’s where most of the pictures are taken over downtown Austin. And then when I fly out to Lake Travis, you know, it’s just mind blowing when you fly out there straight over the Oasis restaurant, over the major part of the Lake Travis, right there by Mansfield Dam. It’s the waterway opens up. And it’s just a beautiful, beautiful sight, especially when you’re flying out there around sunset. And that’s one of the tours that we offer as a sunset tour. Of course, there’s only one of those per day, so they tend to sell out pretty fast. But I just love flying over Lake Travis and I love flying over downtown also. I always say that Lake Travis kind of beats out downtown Austin just a little bit just because of the sheer magnitude of the lake. When you’re flying at about 2000 feet and you see the lake, you can see how large it is. Most people only get to see it from right there at Lake Travis, right there by the oasis. But we had 2000 feet. You could see all of it. And it kind of snakes and winds its way out quite a ways.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:29] When you open the business, obviously you need a helicopter. But what are the things that needed to be considered to open you alls enterprise?

Glen Crawley [00:23:37] Well, you have to have, uh, certain certifications with the FAA. You have to have what’s considered a letter of authorization that can only be given by the FAA in order to do helicopter transport and to charge passengers for it. So you couldn’t just buy a helicopter and say, I’m going to fly people around to get paid. Yeah, you can’t you can’t do that. So you have to go through the FAA. They have to come out and inspect your helicopter and look at all of your books and go through all of your records to make sure the helicopter has been safe and cared for. And then they’ll give you, if you’re lucky, they’ll give you what’s considered a yellow A or a letter of authorization to to transport poor people for for money. And so we had to go through that process. And it was a lengthy process, of course, something that we didn’t even know how long it would take. We thought it’d be like we’d call them up and next week they’ll come check out the helicopter and we’d be flying. It took them eight months to finish this process. So just imagine you buy a helicopter that costs a ton of money, you can’t make any money with it for eight months and paying out of pocket to have it. I figured that I would get tours to cover the cost and it wouldn’t cost me anything. But for about the first year, a year and a half, we were paying out of pocket to have the helicopter. We weren’t making enough money to cover the cost. So had it not been for my other job and my 401k, there’s no way we could have had this helicopter. No way.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:01] All right. What has been the most difficult thing that you had to learn in becoming a pilot?

Glen Crawley [00:25:07] I would say I’ve always been a people person. I mean, I’m a licensed realtor also. So just knowing how to deal with people and communicate well and keep people calm. You know, that’s been has been paramount for me because, you know, people come out, they’re nervous, they’ve heard stories, you know. So you always want to keep them calm. What we do that no one else does is we provide like if you have a certain artist, whatever type music you like, we can play that. Right. We have Spotify on aircrafts. So I’ve found that when you play music for people and it’s something that they like, they’re calm right away because for one, they’re focusing on the song and they’re not focusing on anything else that might not be deemed favorable to think about while you’re flying. And so they they get into a kind of a groove. They’re listening to the music and they’re looking at the sights and everyone is calm. Within 5 minutes, everybody’s happy that they’re up there, you know? But I just I just love giving them what they what they want, you know? And I just love seeing happy customers leave.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:04] Do you see yourself being mentors or opening up the field to other individuals that may have not thought about becoming pilots?

Glen Crawley [00:26:15] Yeah, that’s that’s one of the things we, we, we kind of toy around with whether we want to do instructions or not. When you’re doing instruction, it takes a lot of your time and you really have to focus in on each individual, uh, student. And that’s not our forte as far as what we, what we try, what we’re trying to achieve right now. If someone were to come to me, I’m fine with it, if anyone want to come over and be introduced to flight, I can come over, I can show them all the controls, maybe take them out for a short flight so they can see exactly what it takes to to fly an aircraft. But as far as the teaching, you need to go somewhere where they do that nonstop in order to get the best instruction you need to be where they teach. I mean, you go to the university to learn. You wouldn’t go to speak to somebody who already graduated. Say, teach me something. You would go where they teach every day. So I would I would push them to go towards a training school where that school is more focused on training pilots every day because they’ll get the very best instruction under that condition. I mean, that’s where I had to go to get it. So I didn’t want to talk to some other pilot who had flown already to teach me anything. I rather go where they teach. And so I would say that’s the best place to go to become a pilot. But if you want to just come over and check out a helicopter and see how the controls look inside and maybe go on a short flight or something. Yeah, I’ll come. I’ll do that all day. I want everyone, especially all the young people, to be introduced to aviation in their lives because it changed my life.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:41] Glen Crawley, co-owner of ATX Heli Tours, located in Pflugerville, Texas, a northern suburb of Austin, Texas. If you have questions, comments or suggestions about the future In Black America programs, email us at In Black America at kut.org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week.

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