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From the University of Texas

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at Austin, KUT Radio,

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this is In Black America.

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It's important for us to talk about

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this. We lose a lot of people who

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are committing these acts

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of violence or sometimes are

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suspected of committing them.

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We lose them to the penal system.

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So our exposure

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to and participation in

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the gun violence that some

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participate in also causes loss.

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We're losing by literal loss

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of life. We're loosing some to the

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system.

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And we're sort of contributing to,

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you know, the lack of

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strengthening of our own communities

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and so the extent to which we can,

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you know, check ourselves

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in those respects, but also

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understand how, you

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know, this system's instructors have

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structures have sort of set us

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up in a way to be

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violent towards each other.

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And we need to be re-channeling

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that energy and refocusing it

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towards.

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More positive outcomes for

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us all to better build ourselves

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as individuals, as families, and

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as a community.

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Dr. Tamika Gillum, Associate

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Professor of Community Health in the

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College of Population Health at the

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University of New Mexico.

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Recently, Gillum co-authored a study

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that examined the multi-level

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society factors that contribute to

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disparities in gun violence among

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African-American communities.

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The study utilized social ecological

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models to understand how

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different aspects of society,

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individuals, relationships,

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community, and societal influence

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a person's experience, behavior

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and health outcomes.

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Their analysis identified several

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risk factors across all sectors of

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their research model.

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Among African Americans, they often

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found persistent barriers to support

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services such as appropriate medical

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care and reliable transportation,

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as well as intrusive policing and

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chronic exposure to violence in

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their communities.

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I'm Johnny O'Hansen Jr.

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And welcome to another edition of

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In Black America.

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On this week's program, gun violence

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among African American community

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Dr. Tomeka Gillum.

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In Black America.

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Yeah, I mean, I think there's a

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lot of additional

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things, at least, that we

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can do. I mean there's, we know

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there's lots of problems with law

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enforcement, but ways that can

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be addressed too.

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But, I means, there's point of

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investing more resources into

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these disenfranchised communities,

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things that can be done more on a

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policy level and putting in

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funds to build up these communities

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to, you know, to

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create better.

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School systems for students,

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for our kids to go through,

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to create better sort of

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environmental spaces for us to

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just sort of feel good about where

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we live, to have additional

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resources and opportunities for

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our young people in the context of

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these spaces, to put in

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place even things like

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more youth positive

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development type programs that push

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back against these narratives of us

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as violence.

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Dr. Tamika Gillum has over two

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decades of experience in studying

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intimate partner violence, health

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disparities, and gun violence.

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In 2021, gun violence was

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a major public health issue of

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growing concern in this country.

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With 48,830

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lives lost to gun-related violence,

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documented the highest number of

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gun- related homicides and suicides

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ever recorded.

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The African-American community is

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disproportionately impacted by gun

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violence.

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And are almost 14 times more

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likely to die by gun homicide

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than their white counterparts.

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These disparities prompted Gilliam

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and her team to further assess

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underlying causes of this inequity,

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seeking to clarify the factors

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contributing to this public health

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crisis.

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These include factors such as

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institutional racism, inadequate

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community health support in

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disadvantaged neighborhoods, and

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structural economic disadvantages

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faced by African Americans.

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Recently in Black America spoke with

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Dr. Tomeka Gillum.

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Well, I was born in Michigan,

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but family moved to Philadelphia

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after, you know, plants closing and

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difficulty with the jobs or

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whatever. So I mostly grew

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up in Philadelphia, although

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I did return to Michigan

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for my master's and

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PhD studies.

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So yes, did Michigan State.

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I'm a Spartan Go Green.

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I heard you almost say University of

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Michigan. So that would not have

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been okay, but that's

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her arrival. But yes, we...

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Michigan State.

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So yeah, and since then I've sort of

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been in a few different places where

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I've done research and teaching.

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So what led you to

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major in, I guess, health education?

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Yeah, well, actually, I

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am a community psychologist

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by training.

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And so I did my undergraduate

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studies in psychology,

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eventually discovered community

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psychology, which is sort of a

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smaller sort of baby

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of the field of psychology,

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even though it was founded in the

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60s.

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But it takes a much more look

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at individuals within context,

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so it veers away from.

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Looking solely at individuals as

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the source of their concerns or

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problems, especially when we're

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talking about major sort of social

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issues. And so similar

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to what we did in the

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paper in terms of looking at

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the African-American community at

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these different levels, what factors

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are influencing violence as opposed

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to just looking at, you know,

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that there's potential deficits

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within this community.

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No, it's about not only individual

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level factors but also relationship,

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community, societal.

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So community psychology really looks

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at individuals in context and really

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also seeks to do prevention

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work in addressing

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many of these social concerns.

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So a lot of us look at sort of major

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social issues.

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And that really lends itself to

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community health as well because

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community health is really about

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prevention and community-based

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research and looking

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at sort of larger scale problems and

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how do we do community- based

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intervention. And so most

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of my faculty positions have been

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in.

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Public health, in community

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health, but also some in

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community psychology as well.

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So I've gone back and forth a little

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bit, but it's mostly been in

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public health.

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But that is because, you know,

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my primary work, my

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research for over

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25 years has been primarily

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in looking at intimate

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partner violence within

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racial ethnic minority and sexual

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minority populations.

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So here in the states, that's

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predominantly been with the

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African-American community and

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African immigrant communities.

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And so because I

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view intimate partner violence

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and now gun violence as well as

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a public health issue or public

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health concern that we should be

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addressing hence sort of

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drew me into going

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more into public health and

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trying to tackle issues like this

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from a public-health perspective.

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Now we're going to get into the

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study, but why is the

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African-American community

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particularly associated with

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this type of activity?

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Yeah and so that's

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some of where the overlap between my

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intimate partner violence work and

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this gun violence piece comes in

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as well as community violence

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because based on our experience here

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in the United States we

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experience a lot of risk factors and

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we experience a lot disadvantage.

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We experience a a lot conditions

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or circumstances that

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put us at increased risk for

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experiencing violence overall.

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Totally getting away from this

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narrative of the African-American

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community as inherently

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dysfunctional and that's

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why we have these problems, no,

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it's more so because we've been

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sort of put in conditions and

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circumstances that increase

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the likelihood that we're going to

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be exposed to these

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types of things.

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And so when we look at things like

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intimate partner violence, when we

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looked at things like gun violence.

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Poverty, for example,

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you know, we, as a community,

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experience disproportionate rates

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of poverty.

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Well, we know from

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research that poverty is

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associated, you know poverty,

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living in poverty, is associated

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with increased rates

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of violence in those contexts,

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right? So it's not just that African

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Americans themselves are more

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violent, but African Americans are

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more likely to experience poverty.

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One of the.

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Other papers ever looked at the

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intersection of poverty and violence

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in the African-American community

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and other African diasporas

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because that's one of those things

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that we experience. We experience

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residential segregation due

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to structural inequalities

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that disproportionately places

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us in communities that

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are disenfranchised, that have

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less resources,

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that subsequently experience more

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of these concerns.

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We also have the structural

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issue of racism, which leads

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to portrayals

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of negative images of African

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Americans, which some of us

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internalize and, unfortunately,

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manifest in terms of violence

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00:09:21,110 --> 00:09:22,289
against each other.

294
00:09:22,290 --> 00:09:24,289
But it also then contributes to why

295
00:09:24,290 --> 00:09:26,109
we have increased rates

296
00:09:26,110 --> 00:09:28,229
of violence committed against

297
00:09:28,230 --> 00:09:30,069
us by police officers, for

298
00:09:30,070 --> 00:09:30,949
example.

299
00:09:30,950 --> 00:09:33,069
A lot of them are, you know,

300
00:09:33,070 --> 00:09:35,109
consciously or subconsciously buying

301
00:09:35,110 --> 00:09:37,319
into these negative portrayals.

302
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,039
Of African Americans and viewing

303
00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,279
African Americans as more

304
00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:42,979
of a threat and then consequently

305
00:09:42,980 --> 00:09:45,179
more likely to respond

306
00:09:45,180 --> 00:09:47,099
to their actions, even innocuous

307
00:09:47,100 --> 00:09:49,079
ones, to respond them

308
00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:50,699
with violence.

309
00:09:50,700 --> 00:09:52,819
Same thing with our

310
00:09:52,820 --> 00:09:54,899
peers when we live in even

311
00:09:54,900 --> 00:09:56,379
predominantly white neighborhoods

312
00:09:56,380 --> 00:09:58,259
where a lot of our neighbors

313
00:09:58,260 --> 00:10:00,099
are exposed to some of those same

314
00:10:00,100 --> 00:10:02,119
negative images, those same

315
00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,059
negatives stereotypes perceive us

316
00:10:04,060 --> 00:10:05,189
as threats. So.

317
00:10:05,190 --> 00:10:07,069
We're at increased risk regardless

318
00:10:07,070 --> 00:10:09,409
of where we go, or

319
00:10:09,410 --> 00:10:11,029
what we're doing, or who we're

320
00:10:11,030 --> 00:10:12,909
exposed to because of these

321
00:10:12,910 --> 00:10:14,769
different biases.

322
00:10:14,770 --> 00:10:16,589
It also places us in a position

323
00:10:16,590 --> 00:10:18,229
where because we're in these spaces

324
00:10:18,230 --> 00:10:20,209
with more violence, there's

325
00:10:20,210 --> 00:10:21,809
more of a police presence in our

326
00:10:21,810 --> 00:10:23,929
communities. And so then that

327
00:10:23,930 --> 00:10:26,089
increases the likelihood even more

328
00:10:26,090 --> 00:10:26,969
that our.

329
00:10:26,970 --> 00:10:28,949
Brothers and sisters and youth are

330
00:10:28,950 --> 00:10:30,389
going to be part of the penal

331
00:10:30,390 --> 00:10:32,689
system, but also just increases

332
00:10:32,690 --> 00:10:34,509
the likelihood that we're going

333
00:10:34,510 --> 00:10:36,369
to be exposed to police and police

334
00:10:36,370 --> 00:10:38,629
officers and the violence that they

335
00:10:38,630 --> 00:10:40,789
have inflicted disproportionately on

336
00:10:40,790 --> 00:10:41,889
our communities.

337
00:10:41,890 --> 00:10:44,589
And so all of these pieces sort of

338
00:10:44,590 --> 00:10:46,809
contribute to why we experience

339
00:10:46,810 --> 00:10:48,809
this increased risk and

340
00:10:48,810 --> 00:10:50,809
have more of these different types

341
00:10:50,810 --> 00:10:53,249
of violence in our communities,

342
00:10:53,250 --> 00:10:54,969
including but not limited to gun

343
00:10:54,970 --> 00:10:55,539
violence.

344
00:10:55,540 --> 00:10:57,539
Was there a team that was part of

345
00:10:57,540 --> 00:10:59,619
the study that you conducted?

346
00:10:59,620 --> 00:11:01,879
Yeah, I mean, I tend to

347
00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,819
always sort of work in

348
00:11:03,820 --> 00:11:05,939
teams, but for

349
00:11:05,940 --> 00:11:07,779
this particular one, it was

350
00:11:07,780 --> 00:11:09,719
a number of basically

351
00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,119
former students of mine that

352
00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:13,999
are also African American and

353
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,959
have different interests in terms of

354
00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:17,639
addressing African American issues

355
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:18,779
and concerns.

356
00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:20,959
And so one of them is working

357
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:21,979
on her.

358
00:11:21,980 --> 00:11:23,999
PhD at the University of Maryland

359
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,079
in Baltimore County, and the other

360
00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,019
is soon to be working on her

361
00:11:28,020 --> 00:11:29,119
PhD as well.

362
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,319
She has a master's, and so we

363
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,299
all sort of contributed

364
00:11:33,300 --> 00:11:35,899
as well to producing this

365
00:11:35,900 --> 00:11:36,929
particular piece.

366
00:11:36,930 --> 00:11:39,089
Now, when one thinks about gun

367
00:11:39,090 --> 00:11:40,989
violence, why is it

368
00:11:40,990 --> 00:11:43,489
that those particular events,

369
00:11:43,490 --> 00:11:45,869
you mentioned poverty and

370
00:11:45,870 --> 00:11:48,009
living in segregated neighborhoods,

371
00:11:48,010 --> 00:11:50,089
these particular events are

372
00:11:50,090 --> 00:11:50,949
particularly affecting

373
00:11:50,950 --> 00:11:52,789
African-Americans, but also

374
00:11:52,790 --> 00:11:55,169
is there a systemic problem

375
00:11:55,170 --> 00:11:57,149
that has existed over the years

376
00:11:57,150 --> 00:11:59,069
that caused these type of activities

377
00:11:59,070 --> 00:11:59,779
to occur?

378
00:11:59,780 --> 00:12:01,859
There is the legacy of

379
00:12:01,860 --> 00:12:03,799
slavery in this country for black

380
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:05,579
folks, which subsequently led into

381
00:12:05,580 --> 00:12:07,399
Jim Crow, which subsequent led

382
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,019
into other forms.

383
00:12:09,020 --> 00:12:11,319
That legacy has contributed

384
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,219
to the disproportionate

385
00:12:13,220 --> 00:12:15,279
poverty that we experience

386
00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,219
as the African American community.

387
00:12:17,220 --> 00:12:19,039
It's contributed to things like

388
00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:20,740
lack of homeownership,

389
00:12:22,540 --> 00:12:24,479
the lack of generational wealth

390
00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,619
that we were able to accomplish.

391
00:12:26,620 --> 00:12:28,879
That is all sort of, that's

392
00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:30,799
been centuries in the

393
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,639
making, right? So it makes it so

394
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,859
that we, as a community,

395
00:12:34,860 --> 00:12:36,819
experience higher rates of

396
00:12:36,820 --> 00:12:38,499
poverty, right, and so that

397
00:12:38,500 --> 00:12:39,839
definitely is a historical

398
00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:40,959
circumstance.

399
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,119
This narrative that we've

400
00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,219
painted over the

401
00:12:45,220 --> 00:12:47,039
centuries here in the US of

402
00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:48,979
black men as brutes, for

403
00:12:48,980 --> 00:12:50,859
example, that goes sort of

404
00:12:50,860 --> 00:12:52,839
all the way back to slavery,

405
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,179
as folks who are animalistic,

406
00:12:55,180 --> 00:12:57,539
as folks are prone to violence.

407
00:12:57,540 --> 00:12:59,679
Those narratives have sort of

408
00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:02,719
continued over

409
00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,739
the years just in various

410
00:13:04,740 --> 00:13:05,879
different forms, right?

411
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:07,799
So, you know, we, on

412
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,419
one hand, we can, you point to.

413
00:13:10,420 --> 00:13:12,299
What's most often now referred

414
00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:14,459
to as implicit bias, which,

415
00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:16,519
yeah, definitely happens, but

416
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,679
sometimes explicit, but they

417
00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:20,339
won't say that.

418
00:13:20,340 --> 00:13:22,539
But those perceptions of

419
00:13:22,540 --> 00:13:24,219
African-Americans as inherently

420
00:13:24,220 --> 00:13:27,479
dysfunctional, as violent,

421
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,639
as brute, as dysfunctional.

422
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,619
Now, that goes back hundreds of

423
00:13:31,620 --> 00:13:33,419
years, and it's just manifesting

424
00:13:33,420 --> 00:13:35,279
itself in different forms in

425
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,439
this space. We have a history of...

426
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,379
The history of redlining, which

427
00:13:39,380 --> 00:13:41,199
prohibited sort of home

428
00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,379
ownership in certain spaces for

429
00:13:43,380 --> 00:13:45,219
African Americans and sort

430
00:13:45,220 --> 00:13:47,119
of subjected them to

431
00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:48,919
certain types of neighborhoods and

432
00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:50,759
environments that to this

433
00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:52,979
day research supports most

434
00:13:52,980 --> 00:13:54,419
of those neighborhoods are still

435
00:13:54,420 --> 00:13:56,599
disenfranchised, receive limited

436
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,099
resources that come into those

437
00:13:58,100 --> 00:13:59,139
spaces.

438
00:13:59,140 --> 00:14:01,199
And so a lot of us are living

439
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:02,769
in communities.

440
00:14:02,770 --> 00:14:04,569
Where we experience a number of

441
00:14:04,570 --> 00:14:06,329
different structural inequalities

442
00:14:06,330 --> 00:14:08,389
where not only, you know,

443
00:14:08,390 --> 00:14:10,369
violence is higher, there's less

444
00:14:10,370 --> 00:14:12,249
educational opportunity, there's

445
00:14:12,250 --> 00:14:14,929
less opportunity for advancement,

446
00:14:14,930 --> 00:14:16,969
our children, you know, I mean, we

447
00:14:16,970 --> 00:14:18,710
do have, obviously, public

448
00:14:18,711 --> 00:14:19,649
education.

449
00:14:19,650 --> 00:14:22,349
But in most of our neighborhoods,

450
00:14:22,350 --> 00:14:24,309
it tends to be subpar education.

451
00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:26,149
And students potentially

452
00:14:26,150 --> 00:14:27,709
don't feel safe in those school

453
00:14:27,710 --> 00:14:29,709
environments. So this

454
00:14:29,710 --> 00:14:31,829
whole space has put us...

455
00:14:31,830 --> 00:14:33,649
Predominantly in these

456
00:14:33,650 --> 00:14:35,309
disenfranchised neighborhoods,

457
00:14:36,330 --> 00:14:38,369
which where the conditions lend

458
00:14:38,370 --> 00:14:40,209
themselves to more

459
00:14:40,210 --> 00:14:41,809
violence being perpetrated in those

460
00:14:41,810 --> 00:14:43,989
spaces. So all

461
00:14:43,990 --> 00:14:46,469
of these conditions have historical

462
00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:48,729
roots and unfortunately we're still

463
00:14:48,730 --> 00:14:50,929
kind of far from properly

464
00:14:50,930 --> 00:14:53,309
addressing those issues which

465
00:14:53,310 --> 00:14:54,649
would help with a lot of different

466
00:14:54,650 --> 00:14:56,489
areas. Now, if we were

467
00:14:56,490 --> 00:14:58,509
able to better address some

468
00:14:58,510 --> 00:14:59,869
of those concerns.

469
00:14:59,870 --> 00:15:01,729
There'd be, you know,

470
00:15:01,730 --> 00:15:04,029
more wealth for

471
00:15:04,030 --> 00:15:05,629
African American communities,

472
00:15:05,630 --> 00:15:07,430
there'd be stronger education, there

473
00:15:07,431 --> 00:15:08,629
would be more advancement and

474
00:15:08,630 --> 00:15:09,909
opportunities, there would be less

475
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:11,829
violence, but we have yet

476
00:15:11,830 --> 00:15:13,649
to sort of properly address those

477
00:15:13,650 --> 00:15:15,529
historical wrongs that

478
00:15:15,530 --> 00:15:17,109
have sort of happened in those

479
00:15:17,110 --> 00:15:18,809
negative portrayals and experiences

480
00:15:18,810 --> 00:15:20,149
that have followed us for

481
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:20,849
generations.

482
00:15:20,850 --> 00:15:22,809
That brings you to my next question.

483
00:15:22,810 --> 00:15:24,529
Why is it important for us to

484
00:15:24,530 --> 00:15:26,209
understand these issues of gun

485
00:15:26,210 --> 00:15:26,649
violence?

486
00:15:26,650 --> 00:15:28,549
It's important because on

487
00:15:28,550 --> 00:15:30,309
one hand, we're experiencing

488
00:15:30,310 --> 00:15:32,469
significant loss of

489
00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:35,089
life, right? We're losing our

490
00:15:35,090 --> 00:15:36,969
brothers and sisters as a result of

491
00:15:36,970 --> 00:15:38,009
this violence.

492
00:15:38,010 --> 00:15:40,009
And yes, some of us are, you know,

493
00:15:40,010 --> 00:15:41,609
a lot of it is perpetrated by us

494
00:15:41,610 --> 00:15:43,109
against each other, but again, it's

495
00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:44,269
because of these structural

496
00:15:44,270 --> 00:15:45,229
problems.

497
00:15:45,230 --> 00:15:47,349
And so, you now, we have significant

498
00:15:47,350 --> 00:15:49,249
loss of life we're losing

499
00:15:49,250 --> 00:15:51,109
men, women and children.

500
00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:52,169
You know, when you talk about

501
00:15:52,170 --> 00:15:54,129
research that shows that we're

502
00:15:54,130 --> 00:15:56,729
14 times more likely to

503
00:15:56,730 --> 00:15:58,709
die by gun homicide

504
00:15:58,710 --> 00:16:00,469
when you talk about our children.

505
00:16:00,470 --> 00:16:03,109
Being 20 times more likely,

506
00:16:03,110 --> 00:16:04,749
in some of the recent research, 20

507
00:16:04,750 --> 00:16:06,569
times more likely to die

508
00:16:06,570 --> 00:16:07,689
at the hands of a gun.

509
00:16:07,690 --> 00:16:10,489
We're losing generations,

510
00:16:10,490 --> 00:16:12,049
we're losing fathers, we are losing

511
00:16:12,050 --> 00:16:14,529
mothers, we're loosing children,

512
00:16:14,530 --> 00:16:16,369
and so, I mean, that's one of

513
00:16:16,370 --> 00:16:18,049
the reasons why it's important.

514
00:16:18,050 --> 00:16:19,869
Loss of life is only one piece,

515
00:16:19,870 --> 00:16:21,689
right? We also then, you

516
00:16:21,690 --> 00:16:23,149
know, there are a lot of people who

517
00:16:23,150 --> 00:16:25,229
experience gun violence and survive

518
00:16:25,230 --> 00:16:27,049
gun violence and deal with

519
00:16:27,050 --> 00:16:29,389
the physical and psychological

520
00:16:29,390 --> 00:16:31,509
and economic outcomes

521
00:16:31,510 --> 00:16:33,529
or consequences associated with

522
00:16:33,530 --> 00:16:35,369
that. So we have a lot of people in

523
00:16:35,370 --> 00:16:37,769
community that are experiencing

524
00:16:37,770 --> 00:16:39,809
the detrimental outcomes associated

525
00:16:39,810 --> 00:16:40,719
with...

526
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,579
Their experiences of

527
00:16:42,580 --> 00:16:44,739
victimization by gun violence.

528
00:16:44,740 --> 00:16:46,479
We have a lot of people within our

529
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,219
community, I mean so much research

530
00:16:48,220 --> 00:16:50,099
support that so many in

531
00:16:50,100 --> 00:16:51,939
our community have been exposed to

532
00:16:51,940 --> 00:16:54,059
gun violence, have lost loved

533
00:16:54,060 --> 00:16:56,039
ones to gun-violence,

534
00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,369
have lost family members, friends.

535
00:16:58,370 --> 00:16:59,269
Peers.

536
00:16:59,270 --> 00:17:01,089
And so, you know, that significant

537
00:17:01,090 --> 00:17:03,309
loss also impacts us

538
00:17:03,310 --> 00:17:05,169
all. You know, it

539
00:17:05,170 --> 00:17:07,229
impacts us psychologically

540
00:17:07,230 --> 00:17:09,209
when we've experienced gun

541
00:17:09,210 --> 00:17:11,049
violence, a loss to

542
00:17:11,050 --> 00:17:12,348
gun violence.

543
00:17:12,349 --> 00:17:14,289
It impacts families and

544
00:17:14,290 --> 00:17:15,868
communities that, again, lose

545
00:17:15,869 --> 00:17:17,828
fathers, lose mothers,

546
00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:20,049
lose sisters, brothers, kids.

547
00:17:20,050 --> 00:17:21,429
You, know, those psychological

548
00:17:21,430 --> 00:17:23,429
impacts affect us

549
00:17:23,430 --> 00:17:25,049
as well. And, so, when we think

550
00:17:25,050 --> 00:17:26,579
about sort of...

551
00:17:26,580 --> 00:17:28,459
Maintaining and building and

552
00:17:28,460 --> 00:17:30,559
keeping strong community,

553
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,059
it's important for us to talk about

554
00:17:32,060 --> 00:17:33,779
this. We lose a lot of people who

555
00:17:33,780 --> 00:17:35,739
are committing these acts

556
00:17:35,740 --> 00:17:38,199
of violence or sometimes just

557
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:39,619
suspected of committing them.

558
00:17:39,620 --> 00:17:41,419
We lose them to the penal system,

559
00:17:41,420 --> 00:17:43,439
right? And so our

560
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:44,879
sort of exposure to and

561
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:46,859
participation in the

562
00:17:46,860 --> 00:17:49,099
gun violence that some participate

563
00:17:49,100 --> 00:17:50,779
in also causes loss.

564
00:17:50,780 --> 00:17:52,839
We're losing by literal

565
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:54,799
loss of life. We're losing some to

566
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,819
the system. And we're sort of

567
00:17:56,820 --> 00:17:59,199
contributing to, you know,

568
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,059
the lack of strengthening of our own

569
00:18:01,060 --> 00:18:02,559
communities and so the extent to

570
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,619
which we can, you now,

571
00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:06,339
check ourselves in those respects

572
00:18:06,340 --> 00:18:08,499
but also understand how

573
00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:11,199
the systems instructors have

574
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,119
sort of set us up in

575
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:15,119
a way to be violent towards

576
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:17,239
each other and we need to be

577
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,219
rechanneling that energy

578
00:18:19,220 --> 00:18:21,609
and re-focusing it towards...

579
00:18:21,610 --> 00:18:23,829
You know, more positive outcomes for

580
00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:25,869
us all to better build ourselves

581
00:18:25,870 --> 00:18:27,709
as individuals, as families, and

582
00:18:27,710 --> 00:18:29,209
as a community.

583
00:18:29,210 --> 00:18:30,929
You're listening to In Black America

584
00:18:30,930 --> 00:18:31,909
with Johnny L.

585
00:18:31,910 --> 00:18:32,889
Hanson Jr.

586
00:18:32,890 --> 00:18:34,409
We'll be back with more of our

587
00:18:34,410 --> 00:18:36,229
conversation in just a moment.

588
00:18:37,370 --> 00:18:38,729
If you're just joining us, I'm

589
00:18:38,730 --> 00:18:39,969
Johnny L Hanson, Jr.

590
00:18:39,970 --> 00:18:41,309
And you're listening to In black

591
00:18:41,310 --> 00:18:43,229
America from KUT radio

592
00:18:43,230 --> 00:18:45,689
and speaking with Dr. Tameka Gillum,

593
00:18:45,690 --> 00:18:47,209
a social professor, Community Health

594
00:18:47,210 --> 00:18:49,129
Education College of Population

595
00:18:49,130 --> 00:18:50,989
Health at the University of New

596
00:18:50,990 --> 00:18:52,849
Mexico and co-author of a study

597
00:18:52,850 --> 00:18:54,249
that examined multi-level

598
00:18:54,250 --> 00:18:56,609
sociological factors contributing

599
00:18:56,610 --> 00:18:57,949
to gun violence in black

600
00:18:57,950 --> 00:18:59,159
communities.

601
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,279
Dr. Gillum, is there a sense of

602
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,279
numbness to gun violence in African

603
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:04,559
American communities?

604
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,799
Wow, um,

605
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,459
I don't know that I'd necessarily

606
00:19:08,460 --> 00:19:10,539
say numbness,

607
00:19:10,540 --> 00:19:12,639
but I think a lot of us have

608
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,209
just sort of...

609
00:19:14,210 --> 00:19:16,649
Sort of take this as a

610
00:19:16,650 --> 00:19:18,609
course, as a norm in

611
00:19:18,610 --> 00:19:20,749
the context of our spaces and it

612
00:19:20,750 --> 00:19:22,289
doesn't have to be a norm, it should

613
00:19:22,290 --> 00:19:24,489
not be a normal, but the

614
00:19:24,490 --> 00:19:26,609
fact that it happens so

615
00:19:26,610 --> 00:19:28,669
frequently in our spaces,

616
00:19:28,670 --> 00:19:30,529
the fact it doesn�t

617
00:19:30,530 --> 00:19:32,389
get the type of media

618
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:34,769
attention and resources

619
00:19:34,770 --> 00:19:36,849
that show that people

620
00:19:36,850 --> 00:19:38,689
care about what's happening

621
00:19:38,690 --> 00:19:40,649
in our communities,

622
00:19:40,650 --> 00:19:42,229
all of those things sort of just

623
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:43,709
contribute to.

624
00:19:43,710 --> 00:19:45,489
This sort of notion of this is just

625
00:19:45,490 --> 00:19:47,349
sort of happens and this is

626
00:19:47,350 --> 00:19:49,509
just part of our experience but

627
00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:51,089
we definitely don't need to see it

628
00:19:51,090 --> 00:19:52,329
as part of experience.

629
00:19:52,330 --> 00:19:53,749
I mean some of the research, the

630
00:19:53,750 --> 00:19:55,329
other research that we cited in the

631
00:19:55,330 --> 00:19:57,349
paper even spoke to you know

632
00:19:57,350 --> 00:19:59,609
children, we're talking about middle

633
00:19:59,610 --> 00:20:01,449
school children sort of

634
00:20:01,450 --> 00:20:03,529
resigning to the fact

635
00:20:03,530 --> 00:20:05,369
that they live in these

636
00:20:05,370 --> 00:20:07,089
violent spaces and then

637
00:20:07,090 --> 00:20:09,928
unfortunately experiencing this sort

638
00:20:09,929 --> 00:20:11,889
hypervigilance and all the

639
00:20:11,890 --> 00:20:13,799
things associated with that.

640
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,479
And so, unfortunately, I think we

641
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,339
have too much

642
00:20:17,340 --> 00:20:19,379
viewed it as a norm because it

643
00:20:19,380 --> 00:20:21,059
happens so frequently, because many

644
00:20:21,060 --> 00:20:22,499
of us don't understand the many

645
00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:24,379
factors that contribute to it,

646
00:20:24,380 --> 00:20:26,319
and because the larger society

647
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,299
has sort of viewed it as just

648
00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:29,799
a norm for us, right?

649
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,019
And we definitely need to

650
00:20:32,020 --> 00:20:34,039
better push back against that.

651
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:35,209
I mean, there's things that...

652
00:20:35,210 --> 00:20:37,049
Need to be done on a larger

653
00:20:37,050 --> 00:20:39,489
sort of societal, structural,

654
00:20:39,490 --> 00:20:41,229
policy level, but then there's

655
00:20:41,230 --> 00:20:43,109
things that we also need to do

656
00:20:43,110 --> 00:20:44,389
within the context of our

657
00:20:44,390 --> 00:20:46,249
communities to get it out

658
00:20:46,250 --> 00:20:47,589
there. No, this is not normal.

659
00:20:47,590 --> 00:20:49,069
No this doesn't have to be our

660
00:20:49,070 --> 00:20:51,089
experience to help the better

661
00:20:51,090 --> 00:20:52,859
things in our spaces as well.

662
00:20:52,860 --> 00:20:54,379
Obviously law enforcement

663
00:20:54,380 --> 00:20:55,959
intervention isn't working.

664
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,359
What are some of the suggestions

665
00:20:57,360 --> 00:20:58,629
that you have?

666
00:20:58,630 --> 00:21:00,589
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot

667
00:21:00,590 --> 00:21:02,949
of additional things, at least,

668
00:21:02,950 --> 00:21:04,569
that we can do.

669
00:21:04,570 --> 00:21:06,149
I mean there's, we know there's lots

670
00:21:06,150 --> 00:21:08,369
of problems with law enforcement,

671
00:21:08,370 --> 00:21:10,279
but ways that can be addressed, too.

672
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,239
But, I mean, there's a point

673
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,159
of investing more resources

674
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,199
into these disenfranchised

675
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,059
communities, things that can be

676
00:21:18,060 --> 00:21:20,179
done more on the policy level and

677
00:21:20,180 --> 00:21:22,179
putting in funds to build

678
00:21:22,180 --> 00:21:24,079
up these communities to,

679
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,539
you know, to create better

680
00:21:26,540 --> 00:21:29,099
school systems for students,

681
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:31,399
for our kids to go through,

682
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,579
to create a better sort of

683
00:21:33,580 --> 00:21:35,559
environmental spaces for us to

684
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:36,899
just sort of feel good about where

685
00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:38,009
we live, to...

686
00:21:38,010 --> 00:21:39,769
Have additional resources and

687
00:21:39,770 --> 00:21:41,589
opportunities for our young people

688
00:21:41,590 --> 00:21:44,089
in the context of these spaces to

689
00:21:44,090 --> 00:21:46,349
put in place even, you know,

690
00:21:46,350 --> 00:21:48,669
things like more youth positive

691
00:21:48,670 --> 00:21:50,669
development type programs that push

692
00:21:50,670 --> 00:21:52,589
back against these narratives of us

693
00:21:52,590 --> 00:21:54,249
as violent, that pushback against

694
00:21:54,250 --> 00:21:56,629
these negative perceptions of

695
00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:58,069
African-American communities.

696
00:21:58,070 --> 00:21:59,909
As we engage, we can

697
00:21:59,910 --> 00:22:02,069
better engage in efforts to

698
00:22:02,070 --> 00:22:04,349
build our communities, to...

699
00:22:04,350 --> 00:22:06,409
To build our spaces to

700
00:22:06,410 --> 00:22:08,489
strengthen and empower our

701
00:22:08,490 --> 00:22:10,709
youth, to strengthen and empower our

702
00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:12,549
families can also,

703
00:22:12,550 --> 00:22:14,509
you know, do better,

704
00:22:14,510 --> 00:22:16,189
the larger society can certainly do

705
00:22:16,190 --> 00:22:18,689
better in terms of the types of

706
00:22:18,690 --> 00:22:20,669
policies we have in place that

707
00:22:20,670 --> 00:22:22,829
make firearms more

708
00:22:22,830 --> 00:22:25,409
accessible in our communities.

709
00:22:25,410 --> 00:22:27,669
There definitely needs to be better

710
00:22:27,670 --> 00:22:29,739
efforts on the federal level.

711
00:22:29,740 --> 00:22:31,819
To do better in terms of sort of

712
00:22:31,820 --> 00:22:33,639
controlling or addressing those

713
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,159
types of things.

714
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,299
We need to engage

715
00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:38,719
in efforts that help to reduce

716
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,759
things like intimate partner

717
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,039
violence, community level

718
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,459
interventions for men and boys

719
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,759
that help us to

720
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,819
reduce the numbers

721
00:22:49,820 --> 00:22:51,199
of intimate partner violent that

722
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:52,779
happen in our communities that place

723
00:22:52,780 --> 00:22:55,019
our women at increased risk for

724
00:22:55,020 --> 00:22:57,139
intimate partner homicide.

725
00:22:57,140 --> 00:22:59,139
We need better mental

726
00:22:59,140 --> 00:23:01,119
health resources and services for

727
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:02,619
folks who've been exposed to

728
00:23:02,620 --> 00:23:04,819
intimate partner violence for

729
00:23:04,820 --> 00:23:06,799
those of us who deal with,

730
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,139
you know, some of the consequences

731
00:23:08,140 --> 00:23:09,959
and challenges of living

732
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,899
in a racist society and the

733
00:23:11,900 --> 00:23:13,479
type of psychological toll that that

734
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,319
can take and how we can better

735
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,139
normalize receiving,

736
00:23:17,140 --> 00:23:19,139
seeking and receiving, that type of

737
00:23:19,140 --> 00:23:20,479
assistance from culturally

738
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,359
responsive therapists that

739
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:23,939
are better able to deal with the

740
00:23:23,940 --> 00:23:26,219
types of traumas that we experience

741
00:23:26,220 --> 00:23:28,269
and facilitate our healing.

742
00:23:28,270 --> 00:23:30,469
Whether we've directly experienced

743
00:23:30,470 --> 00:23:32,109
this type of violence or whether

744
00:23:32,110 --> 00:23:34,049
we've experienced it vicariously

745
00:23:34,050 --> 00:23:35,869
through our living spaces or

746
00:23:35,870 --> 00:23:37,289
our loved ones.

747
00:23:37,290 --> 00:23:38,229
There's lots of different

748
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:39,849
initiatives, things that can be done

749
00:23:39,850 --> 00:23:41,949
on our sort of individual and

750
00:23:41,950 --> 00:23:44,049
interpersonal and community level,

751
00:23:44,050 --> 00:23:46,289
but then also these larger

752
00:23:46,290 --> 00:23:48,469
federal initiatives that can help to

753
00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:50,349
better invest in and build

754
00:23:50,350 --> 00:23:52,189
up African-American communities

755
00:23:52,190 --> 00:23:54,149
and spaces, reduce

756
00:23:54,150 --> 00:23:55,789
the likelihood of these guns getting

757
00:23:55,790 --> 00:23:57,479
into our spaces.

758
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,299
And other sort of writing,

759
00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:00,479
some of those structural

760
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,439
inequalities that have

761
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,519
limited our ability to

762
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,439
gain wealth to advance

763
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:07,399
ourselves.

764
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:08,799
You know, those types of things, as

765
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,899
we chip away at those types

766
00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:12,899
of things they have the potential

767
00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:14,859
to reduce the amount of

768
00:24:14,860 --> 00:24:16,339
violence that we experience within

769
00:24:16,340 --> 00:24:18,119
the context of our spaces.

770
00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:19,819
Now, Dr. Gillum, you articulated

771
00:24:19,820 --> 00:24:21,619
what needs to be done.

772
00:24:21,620 --> 00:24:23,819
Do you see a willingness to do it?

773
00:24:23,820 --> 00:24:24,820
Well,

774
00:24:26,380 --> 00:24:28,199
yes and no,

775
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,399
we do

776
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,599
a little bit better in terms

777
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,539
of, you know, some of our

778
00:24:34,540 --> 00:24:36,439
community leaders helping

779
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,259
to take initiative in terms creating

780
00:24:39,260 --> 00:24:41,299
positive youth programs,

781
00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:43,419
for example, attempting

782
00:24:43,420 --> 00:24:45,519
to work and build up our

783
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,419
communities. I think more of us

784
00:24:47,420 --> 00:24:49,319
definitely need to do that, but

785
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,339
some of us do, you have to do those

786
00:24:51,340 --> 00:24:52,419
things.

787
00:24:52,420 --> 00:24:54,399
The things that need to take, and

788
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,319
there are, when we talk about sort

789
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,459
of creating more

790
00:24:58,460 --> 00:25:01,079
culturally sensitive trauma-informed

791
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,919
mental health services,

792
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,939
there are sort of some efforts

793
00:25:04,940 --> 00:25:05,839
to do that.

794
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,699
We do need to do better at

795
00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:09,579
that, you know,

796
00:25:09,580 --> 00:25:11,459
our faculty wants in a place that

797
00:25:11,460 --> 00:25:13,379
trains future licensed

798
00:25:13,380 --> 00:25:14,939
mental health professionals, right,

799
00:25:14,940 --> 00:25:16,719
and we did some of that, but we

800
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:17,979
could have done better.

801
00:25:17,980 --> 00:25:19,359
You know, so those types of things

802
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:21,249
are happening.

803
00:25:21,250 --> 00:25:22,749
Unfortunately, the things that have

804
00:25:22,750 --> 00:25:24,729
to happen on a larger society

805
00:25:24,730 --> 00:25:26,609
level to sort of

806
00:25:26,610 --> 00:25:28,569
right some of these, these sort

807
00:25:28,570 --> 00:25:30,729
of historical wrongs that have

808
00:25:30,730 --> 00:25:32,649
happened to us, I think, are

809
00:25:32,650 --> 00:25:34,509
slower to come

810
00:25:34,510 --> 00:25:37,069
to fruition.

811
00:25:37,070 --> 00:25:38,889
And I think one of the,

812
00:25:38,890 --> 00:25:40,609
when we talk about sort of investing

813
00:25:40,610 --> 00:25:43,189
in our communities,

814
00:25:43,190 --> 00:25:45,109
you know, part of that is going to

815
00:25:45,110 --> 00:25:46,949
be trying to get

816
00:25:46,950 --> 00:25:48,929
more elected officials that

817
00:25:48,930 --> 00:25:50,409
look like us.

818
00:25:50,410 --> 00:25:52,449
And have our interest at heart

819
00:25:52,450 --> 00:25:54,509
into, you know, positions

820
00:25:54,510 --> 00:25:56,409
in the government to be able

821
00:25:56,410 --> 00:25:58,269
to make these types of proposals and

822
00:25:58,270 --> 00:26:00,169
to support these types of proposals

823
00:26:00,170 --> 00:26:02,229
that are going to put

824
00:26:02,230 --> 00:26:04,249
resources into our communities to

825
00:26:04,250 --> 00:26:06,569
help uplift our spaces.

826
00:26:06,570 --> 00:26:08,329
We definitely, you now, there's not,

827
00:26:08,330 --> 00:26:10,429
there doesn't seem to be

828
00:26:10,430 --> 00:26:12,469
enough interest on

829
00:26:12,470 --> 00:26:14,189
sort of the larger federal level in

830
00:26:14,190 --> 00:26:15,889
terms of investing in our spaces and

831
00:26:15,890 --> 00:26:17,649
what can be done to strengthen and

832
00:26:17,650 --> 00:26:19,529
better. Our communities.

833
00:26:19,530 --> 00:26:21,349
We need those initiatives that

834
00:26:21,350 --> 00:26:23,709
try to, you know, address the

835
00:26:23,710 --> 00:26:25,909
legacy of redlining

836
00:26:25,910 --> 00:26:27,909
and how that's impacted

837
00:26:27,910 --> 00:26:29,689
homeownership and generational

838
00:26:29,690 --> 00:26:30,929
welfare in African-American

839
00:26:30,930 --> 00:26:32,049
communities.

840
00:26:32,050 --> 00:26:34,049
There can be better initiatives in

841
00:26:34,050 --> 00:26:35,809
place to address those as well.

842
00:26:35,810 --> 00:26:37,809
We aren't doing enough with that.

843
00:26:37,810 --> 00:26:40,049
We are doing enough with regulation

844
00:26:40,050 --> 00:26:42,509
of firearms and the types of

845
00:26:42,510 --> 00:26:44,369
policies and legislation that we can

846
00:26:44,370 --> 00:26:46,749
be putting in place to sort of

847
00:26:46,750 --> 00:26:48,589
start to curb that

848
00:26:48,590 --> 00:26:50,349
a little bit more and we know that's

849
00:26:50,350 --> 00:26:52,949
a big political

850
00:26:52,950 --> 00:26:54,829
issue, it's a divisive issue, but

851
00:26:54,830 --> 00:26:56,629
consequently there's been very slow

852
00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:58,289
progress on it.

853
00:26:58,290 --> 00:27:00,209
The recent bipartisan act that was

854
00:27:00,210 --> 00:27:01,589
passed a couple years ago was the

855
00:27:01,590 --> 00:27:03,669
first legislation in 30

856
00:27:03,670 --> 00:27:05,709
years to try

857
00:27:05,710 --> 00:27:07,609
to address this issue of violence.

858
00:27:07,610 --> 00:27:09,449
Is the gun violence issue

859
00:27:09,450 --> 00:27:11,389
in America, particularly

860
00:27:11,390 --> 00:27:13,369
indigenous to America, are the other

861
00:27:13,370 --> 00:27:16,199
countries facing similar problems?

862
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,099
Good question. So we're the worst of

863
00:27:19,100 --> 00:27:20,779
developed nations, of what they call

864
00:27:20,780 --> 00:27:22,799
sort of first world or developed

865
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,719
nations. We definitely are

866
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,679
the worst, which is very telling.

867
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,639
Like we experience the highest rates

868
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,089
of gun violence.

869
00:27:30,090 --> 00:27:31,749
Dr. Tamika Gillum, Associate

870
00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:33,489
Professor of Community Health in the

871
00:27:33,490 --> 00:27:35,389
College of Population Health at the

872
00:27:35,390 --> 00:27:37,409
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In Black American is a

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