1 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,845 From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio. 2 00:00:20,690 --> 00:00:22,940 This is in Black America. 3 00:00:23,270 --> 00:00:29,150 Thumbnail sketch of Brown v. Board of Education decided in 1954 concerning 4 00:00:29,150 --> 00:00:36,080 southern states, border states, and these were places that required school kids to 5 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:37,820 go to separate racially separate schools. 6 00:00:37,820 --> 00:00:39,530 By law and by law. 7 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,860 You often hear this fancy term called dere, but what it just really 8 00:00:42,860 --> 00:00:45,650 means is that there's a state law that require or, or an ordinance. 9 00:00:45,715 --> 00:00:49,015 That requires the kids to be separated in school on the basis of race. 10 00:00:49,075 --> 00:00:51,085 And in 1954, the Supreme Court said, you know what? 11 00:00:51,085 --> 00:00:52,585 That's unconstitutional. 12 00:00:52,585 --> 00:00:56,395 It violates the United States Constitution, and it struck 13 00:00:56,395 --> 00:00:57,805 all of those laws down. 14 00:00:57,985 --> 00:01:01,885 And so that's what Brown is about and sort of Brown is really. 15 00:01:02,300 --> 00:01:05,930 The beginning in a lot of ways of our modern civil rights era, but also 16 00:01:05,935 --> 00:01:09,680 the, the, the case that's the bedrock that the, the state can't decide. 17 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,350 You know what, we're gonna send black kids to one school and white kids to another. 18 00:01:12,500 --> 00:01:15,980 Michelle Adams, law professor at the University of Michigan Law School, 19 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,730 an author of Containment Detroit, the Supreme Court, in a Battle 20 00:01:19,730 --> 00:01:23,420 for Racial Justice in the North, published by Macmillan publishers. 21 00:01:24,270 --> 00:01:29,130 2024 marked the seventh anniversary of Brown B Board of Education, the 22 00:01:29,130 --> 00:01:32,340 Landmark 1954 US Supreme Court case. 23 00:01:32,850 --> 00:01:36,690 In it, the court said that separating children on the basis of race in 24 00:01:36,690 --> 00:01:40,860 public schools was unconstitutional and rejected the notion that separate 25 00:01:40,860 --> 00:01:42,570 schools could be separate but equal. 26 00:01:43,020 --> 00:01:47,190 Brown rightfully became iconic, a watershed moment in the progress 27 00:01:47,190 --> 00:01:49,169 toward racial equality in this country. 28 00:01:49,809 --> 00:01:53,589 20 years after Brown, another US Supreme Court decision, lesser 29 00:01:53,589 --> 00:01:57,460 known to many effectively stopped the promise of Brown in his tracks. 30 00:01:58,179 --> 00:02:01,539 In a book containment, Adam, sell the epic story of the struggle to 31 00:02:01,539 --> 00:02:03,160 integrate Detroit Public Schools. 32 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,829 I'm John L. Hansen Jr. And welcome to another edition of In Black America 33 00:02:09,370 --> 00:02:13,390 on this week's program, containment Detroit, the Supreme Court and the 34 00:02:13,390 --> 00:02:15,010 Battle for Racial Justice in the North. 35 00:02:15,674 --> 00:02:18,915 With Michelle Adams, professor of law at the University of Michigan 36 00:02:18,915 --> 00:02:21,345 Law School in Black America. 37 00:02:21,495 --> 00:02:22,275 That's a good question. 38 00:02:22,275 --> 00:02:23,265 And so let's talk about this. 39 00:02:23,265 --> 00:02:26,234 So what we were talking about before was, well, how did the schools 40 00:02:26,234 --> 00:02:27,704 become segregated in the north? 41 00:02:27,795 --> 00:02:29,265 So we gotta figure out how that happened. 42 00:02:29,295 --> 00:02:35,505 And one of the ways that that happened was is that if the, if the neighborhoods 43 00:02:35,505 --> 00:02:37,065 are residentially segregated. 44 00:02:37,755 --> 00:02:41,445 And we can talk about the, the way that happens if you then have school 45 00:02:41,445 --> 00:02:45,765 authorities who say, well, you have to go to school in your neighborhood, or 46 00:02:45,765 --> 00:02:50,385 you have to go to a school that's nearby, then what would, what that means is that 47 00:02:50,385 --> 00:02:55,545 the school authorities are essentially incorporating the underlying residential 48 00:02:55,545 --> 00:02:58,695 segregation, but then they turn around and say, it's got nothing to do with 49 00:02:58,695 --> 00:03:00,465 us because we just run the schools. 50 00:03:00,465 --> 00:03:01,755 We don't have anything to do with the neighborhoods. 51 00:03:01,755 --> 00:03:02,715 We're not realtors. 52 00:03:03,105 --> 00:03:03,345 Right. 53 00:03:03,345 --> 00:03:05,775 We don't, we aren't, we don't lend mortgages. 54 00:03:05,775 --> 00:03:06,915 We don't sell houses. 55 00:03:07,110 --> 00:03:07,410 Right. 56 00:03:07,470 --> 00:03:12,030 That's one of the big pieces is trying to get at the role of 57 00:03:12,030 --> 00:03:16,710 housing, uh, and housing segregation as it affected the schools. 58 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,550 In 1950, Detroit had nearly 2 million residents and was the 59 00:03:20,550 --> 00:03:22,410 fourth largest city in the nation. 60 00:03:22,890 --> 00:03:27,240 It was a city on the move, but behind the bluster was an unsettling reality. 61 00:03:27,660 --> 00:03:30,480 In Detroit, Jim Crow was alive and well. 62 00:03:30,900 --> 00:03:34,500 Michigan prohibits segregation in public education decades before. 63 00:03:34,500 --> 00:03:37,890 The Supreme Court did the same for the country and Brown Beach Board of 64 00:03:37,890 --> 00:03:43,680 Education in 1954, yet nearly 20 years after Brown, the public schools in the 65 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,780 motor city remained totally segregated. 66 00:03:45,815 --> 00:03:51,755 In 1970, the NAACP filed sued against stating local officials in federal court, 67 00:03:52,355 --> 00:03:55,745 the plaintiff billed a case showing that residential segregation that led 68 00:03:55,745 --> 00:04:00,484 to local school segregation was a result of purposeful decision made by stating 69 00:04:00,484 --> 00:04:04,595 local government something that had never been successfully argued before. 70 00:04:05,265 --> 00:04:10,035 Recently in Black America, spoke with law professor Michelle Adams as a native 71 00:04:10,035 --> 00:04:13,005 Detroiter, I am also a native Detroiter. 72 00:04:13,095 --> 00:04:15,315 What was life like growing up in the motor city? 73 00:04:15,704 --> 00:04:19,005 Well, you know, it's interesting in that I grew up in the motor 74 00:04:19,005 --> 00:04:22,455 city, but I kind of had my, you know, feet in two separate worlds. 75 00:04:22,545 --> 00:04:25,664 I, you know, I, the, the neighborhood I lived in is called Palmer 76 00:04:25,664 --> 00:04:30,914 Woods, close to the border of, uh, the suburbs right off of, uh. 77 00:04:31,275 --> 00:04:32,865 Eight mile and off of Woodward. 78 00:04:32,985 --> 00:04:33,135 Mm-hmm. 79 00:04:33,465 --> 00:04:39,345 And so I grew up in a black community, uh, with, you know, my father was a lawyer. 80 00:04:39,525 --> 00:04:42,735 All the parents that I knew, they were, they were doctors, they 81 00:04:42,735 --> 00:04:45,165 were lawyers, they were school administrators, they were nurses. 82 00:04:45,555 --> 00:04:49,725 Uh, they had all gone to HBCUs and it was an incredibly wonderful community. 83 00:04:49,725 --> 00:04:51,675 And I can't think of a better place to grow up. 84 00:04:52,075 --> 00:04:56,364 So I, I had one foot there, but then I also had another foot in a white community 85 00:04:56,364 --> 00:04:59,455 because my parents made a decision for me when I was only three or four years 86 00:04:59,455 --> 00:05:03,294 old to send me to Roper City and Country School, which is in Bloomfield Hills. 87 00:05:03,354 --> 00:05:07,525 And so every day for 14 years, I would get on a very long bus, very long 88 00:05:07,525 --> 00:05:11,635 bus ride, and I would be, you know, going to this school, which actually 89 00:05:11,635 --> 00:05:13,224 ended up being a great place for me. 90 00:05:13,315 --> 00:05:17,875 And so I really, as a kid growing up, really was able 91 00:05:17,875 --> 00:05:20,005 to kind of, I had, I had my. 92 00:05:20,135 --> 00:05:25,985 Myself, my, my sort of who I am, who I became really was, uh, because of 93 00:05:25,985 --> 00:05:27,150 both of those kinds of influences. 94 00:05:27,510 --> 00:05:27,599 Was 95 00:05:28,135 --> 00:05:30,840 it a foregone conclusion that you were gonna become an attorney? 96 00:05:31,050 --> 00:05:33,060 Well, you know, I idolized my father. 97 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,830 He had gone to Detroit College of Law, graduated in 1957, put himself through 98 00:05:37,830 --> 00:05:42,690 law school, uh, working on the line def He did mostly criminal work, defended 99 00:05:42,690 --> 00:05:44,550 several generations of Detroiters. 100 00:05:44,940 --> 00:05:48,150 I remember folks coming by and paying him and had cheese and mm-hmm. 101 00:05:48,570 --> 00:05:50,135 When they didn't have, when they didn't have the money. 102 00:05:50,555 --> 00:05:54,480 And so, you know, I really, I would go downtown and watch him do his thing. 103 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,789 And so I, I kind of always thought I was gonna be a lawyer. 104 00:05:56,990 --> 00:05:57,560 Absolutely. 105 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,070 Prior to your professorship at the University of Michigan, what other 106 00:06:02,190 --> 00:06:03,930 faculty positions have you held? 107 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,540 Uh, I came here in, in, uh, 2022. 108 00:06:06,540 --> 00:06:10,650 Before that I was at Cardozo Law School in Manhattan, which is a division of Yeshiva. 109 00:06:10,650 --> 00:06:13,620 And before that I was at Seton Hall Law School in Newark, New Jersey. 110 00:06:13,830 --> 00:06:17,310 And what led you to, uh, take on this tremendous task of 111 00:06:17,310 --> 00:06:19,380 talking about Milliken v Bradley? 112 00:06:19,590 --> 00:06:22,620 Well, it, you know, it's really been a labor of love and it's been 113 00:06:22,620 --> 00:06:23,970 one that's taken me many years. 114 00:06:24,435 --> 00:06:28,785 As a law professor in terms of what I teach, I teach constitutional law. 115 00:06:28,785 --> 00:06:32,325 If you teach the Brown case, which I'm happy to talk about, you will 116 00:06:32,325 --> 00:06:35,265 get into talking about some of the cases that came after Brown. 117 00:06:35,265 --> 00:06:37,995 And so this would always be kind of a footnote, you know, something 118 00:06:37,995 --> 00:06:41,445 that we just mentioned for a minute or two, uh, while we were on our 119 00:06:41,445 --> 00:06:43,035 way to talking about other things. 120 00:06:43,105 --> 00:06:46,825 But I knew that the case took place in Detroit, and because I'm from Detroit, 121 00:06:47,305 --> 00:06:49,045 I was really, really interested in it. 122 00:06:49,045 --> 00:06:52,225 So every chance I got, I would read more and more and more about the case. 123 00:06:52,225 --> 00:06:55,855 And there's been like 25 books about Brown, but not so much 124 00:06:55,855 --> 00:06:58,405 written about Milliken versus Bradley, like a book and a half. 125 00:06:58,615 --> 00:07:02,605 And the more I read, the more interested I got and the more interested I 126 00:07:02,605 --> 00:07:03,925 got, the more I wanted to read. 127 00:07:03,925 --> 00:07:04,825 You know how that goes. 128 00:07:04,885 --> 00:07:04,975 Mm-hmm. 129 00:07:05,365 --> 00:07:09,835 And so I started to believe that there was just this incredible story there. 130 00:07:10,295 --> 00:07:14,225 At a certain point I thought, I've gotta write about this, and if only 131 00:07:14,225 --> 00:07:18,635 for myself, and I thought, I wanna write a book that I wanna read. 132 00:07:18,635 --> 00:07:20,855 And I sort of trusted that if I wanted to read it, then other 133 00:07:20,855 --> 00:07:21,905 folks would wanna read it too. 134 00:07:22,145 --> 00:07:26,015 And for those that aren't familiar with Brown V Board of Education, 135 00:07:26,015 --> 00:07:29,570 give us a thumbnail of, of that particular case in the decision. 136 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:36,420 Thumbnail sketch of Brown V. Board of Education decided in 1954 concerning 137 00:07:36,420 --> 00:07:42,360 southern states, border states, and these were places that required. 138 00:07:42,750 --> 00:07:47,610 School kids to go to separate racially separate schools by law and by law. 139 00:07:47,789 --> 00:07:51,150 You often hear this fancy term called dere, but what it just really means 140 00:07:51,150 --> 00:07:53,940 is that there's a state law that require, or, or an ordinance that 141 00:07:53,940 --> 00:07:57,090 requires the kids to be separated in school on the basis of race. 142 00:07:57,750 --> 00:07:59,820 And in 1954, the Supreme Court said, you know what? 143 00:07:59,820 --> 00:08:01,289 That's unconstitutional. 144 00:08:01,289 --> 00:08:04,169 It violates the United States Constitution. 145 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:06,990 And it struck all of those laws down. 146 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:09,690 And so that's what Brown is about. 147 00:08:09,690 --> 00:08:13,530 And sort of brown is really the beginning in a lot of ways of our 148 00:08:13,530 --> 00:08:17,730 modern civil rights era, but also the, the, the case that's the bedrock, that 149 00:08:17,730 --> 00:08:20,670 the, the state can't decide, you know what, we're gonna send black kids to 150 00:08:20,670 --> 00:08:22,110 one school and white kids to another. 151 00:08:22,380 --> 00:08:29,040 Why was this particular case different from Brown in the sense that Brown 152 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,190 deals with, I guess, uh, with southern states in this particular 153 00:08:32,190 --> 00:08:34,560 case, dealt with northern cities? 154 00:08:35,294 --> 00:08:36,975 Well, John, that's a great question. 155 00:08:37,395 --> 00:08:40,934 Um, and this is also one of the reasons why I kept reading about this case and, 156 00:08:41,025 --> 00:08:43,095 and why it became so interesting to me. 157 00:08:43,725 --> 00:08:46,665 You know, the Supreme Court would often talk about, and I'll use 158 00:08:46,665 --> 00:08:50,205 these terms and, and I'll translate them, that they called Dejure, as we 159 00:08:50,205 --> 00:08:53,175 mentioned before, which means by law segregation, and then they have this 160 00:08:53,175 --> 00:08:55,995 other term called defacto segregation. 161 00:08:55,995 --> 00:08:57,915 But what that really means is we don't know where it came from. 162 00:08:58,255 --> 00:09:04,824 So there'd be all these schools that were like 92% black or 98% black and 93% white. 163 00:09:04,824 --> 00:09:06,055 And this is in the north now. 164 00:09:06,655 --> 00:09:09,564 And the sort of response was, we don't know how they got that way. 165 00:09:10,380 --> 00:09:12,150 And there's no law that requires it. 166 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,000 And in fact, in Michigan, there was a law that said you couldn't 167 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,830 segregate schools on the basis of race. 168 00:09:16,950 --> 00:09:21,990 And so for me that what's different is that the question became after 169 00:09:21,990 --> 00:09:26,490 Brown versus Board of Education, does that rule in Brown that it's 170 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,000 unconstitutional to separate the students on the basis of race? 171 00:09:30,390 --> 00:09:35,460 Does that apply in the north too, where the schools are segregated? 172 00:09:36,345 --> 00:09:38,625 Oftentimes the school authorities would say, well, we don't 173 00:09:38,625 --> 00:09:39,555 know how they got that way. 174 00:09:39,555 --> 00:09:40,515 It's a mystery to us. 175 00:09:40,545 --> 00:09:42,105 How could that possibly have happened? 176 00:09:42,194 --> 00:09:46,305 But there's no law that requires it, so we can't be held responsible, and 177 00:09:46,305 --> 00:09:47,985 there's no constitutional violation. 178 00:09:48,255 --> 00:09:49,305 That's the key difference. 179 00:09:49,305 --> 00:09:54,314 The key differences between what we call dejure or by law segregation in 180 00:09:54,314 --> 00:09:59,295 this thing called def facto, and in the north, the big question was what caused. 181 00:09:59,729 --> 00:10:01,020 Segregation in the north. 182 00:10:01,020 --> 00:10:02,520 And that's really the, the question. 183 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,760 And that's why this case, Milliken versus Bradley became so important 184 00:10:06,119 --> 00:10:07,530 as a child growing up. 185 00:10:07,530 --> 00:10:10,469 We had neighborhood school particularly, uh, the street in 186 00:10:10,469 --> 00:10:13,829 which I grew up on, the elementary school was at the end of the block. 187 00:10:14,010 --> 00:10:17,310 We ended up going maybe five miles to the junior high school. 188 00:10:17,310 --> 00:10:21,930 And then the high school I went attended was Pering, which was another eight 189 00:10:21,930 --> 00:10:24,270 blocks from, from, from our home. 190 00:10:24,689 --> 00:10:28,560 So basically there was a neighborhood type of. 191 00:10:29,355 --> 00:10:34,635 Magnet system that we were operating on, this was like in the sixties 192 00:10:34,635 --> 00:10:36,435 and, and, and, and late fifties. 193 00:10:37,005 --> 00:10:41,085 How did that particular model become somewhat of a model or proposal 194 00:10:41,085 --> 00:10:44,145 in which they wanted to do with the other schools around the city? 195 00:10:44,505 --> 00:10:45,225 That's a good question. 196 00:10:45,225 --> 00:10:46,305 And so let's talk about this. 197 00:10:46,305 --> 00:10:49,275 So what we were talking about before was, well, how did the schools 198 00:10:49,275 --> 00:10:50,715 become segregated in the north? 199 00:10:50,805 --> 00:10:52,305 So we gotta figure out how that happened. 200 00:10:52,515 --> 00:10:55,995 And one of the ways that that happened was, is that. 201 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,760 If the neighborhoods are residentially segregated. 202 00:11:00,165 --> 00:11:03,854 And we can talk about the, the way that happens if you then have school 203 00:11:03,854 --> 00:11:07,785 authorities who say, well, you have to go to school in your neighborhood, 204 00:11:08,084 --> 00:11:12,285 or you have to go to a school that's nearby, then what would, what that 205 00:11:12,285 --> 00:11:16,035 means is that the school authorities are essentially incorporating. 206 00:11:16,420 --> 00:11:20,469 The underlying residential segregation, but then they turn around and say, 207 00:11:20,469 --> 00:11:23,170 it's got nothing to do with us because we just run the schools. 208 00:11:23,170 --> 00:11:24,490 We don't have anything to do with the neighborhoods. 209 00:11:24,490 --> 00:11:25,449 We're not realtors. 210 00:11:25,839 --> 00:11:26,079 Right. 211 00:11:26,079 --> 00:11:28,540 We don't, we aren't, we don't lend mortgages. 212 00:11:28,540 --> 00:11:29,740 We don't sell houses. 213 00:11:29,829 --> 00:11:30,189 Right. 214 00:11:30,699 --> 00:11:35,079 And so that's, that's one of the big pieces is trying to 215 00:11:35,079 --> 00:11:37,810 get at the role of housing. 216 00:11:38,235 --> 00:11:41,445 Uh, and housing segregation as it affected the schools. 217 00:11:41,775 --> 00:11:47,055 How did we get to the point where housing was the main culprit of, of 218 00:11:47,055 --> 00:11:48,945 how the school system was operating? 219 00:11:49,125 --> 00:11:53,115 That's also a really, really good question, and the answer is that, and 220 00:11:53,115 --> 00:11:55,005 this is why it gets a little complicated. 221 00:11:55,395 --> 00:11:58,095 There's so many different players. 222 00:11:58,755 --> 00:12:03,765 Actors, you know, it's not like one thing that you can see that's so clear, like 223 00:12:03,765 --> 00:12:06,854 in the south where it's just like, you know, white's only drinking fountain. 224 00:12:07,334 --> 00:12:09,135 But I'll give you some examples, right? 225 00:12:09,135 --> 00:12:12,104 So they had these things called racially restrictive covenants. 226 00:12:12,704 --> 00:12:16,454 And so for a long time, up until the Supreme Court struck them down, 227 00:12:17,055 --> 00:12:21,915 if you wanted to buy a house and there was a racially restrictive 228 00:12:21,915 --> 00:12:23,895 covenant in the deed, right? 229 00:12:23,895 --> 00:12:26,204 You couldn't sell that house to a black family. 230 00:12:26,819 --> 00:12:29,040 The deed itself would say, you know what? 231 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,510 This house can't be sold to a black family, a Jewish family, et cetera. 232 00:12:33,569 --> 00:12:37,380 And those racially restrictive covenants were in the deeds of 233 00:12:37,380 --> 00:12:42,449 all new subdivisions in the city of Detroit between 1910 and 1950. 234 00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:46,454 And then during the trial, which we can talk about, it turns out that one of 235 00:12:46,454 --> 00:12:49,260 the major title insurance companies, 'cause you don't have to get title 236 00:12:49,260 --> 00:12:50,699 insurance when you wanna sell a house. 237 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,110 Was still reporting that these racially restrictive covenants were in the 238 00:12:54,110 --> 00:12:58,010 deeds even after the Supreme Court said they were unconstitutional. 239 00:12:58,220 --> 00:13:03,530 And even after there was a federal statute passed in 1968 called the Fair 240 00:13:03,530 --> 00:13:07,040 Housing Act that says you can't have racially restrictive covenants anymore. 241 00:13:07,310 --> 00:13:07,640 Right? 242 00:13:07,790 --> 00:13:09,020 So that's one way. 243 00:13:09,410 --> 00:13:10,250 So that's. 244 00:13:10,635 --> 00:13:11,564 One piece of it. 245 00:13:11,594 --> 00:13:15,165 Then there was the federal government, and it turns out the federal government had a 246 00:13:15,165 --> 00:13:19,005 big role in segregating our neighborhoods in a couple of different ways, right? 247 00:13:19,005 --> 00:13:23,204 So we have the depression, the New Deal, and then we have all this regulation 248 00:13:23,204 --> 00:13:29,055 and these new agencies that are there to set up, to kind of help people if 249 00:13:29,055 --> 00:13:31,035 they, if they've gotten behind in there. 250 00:13:31,604 --> 00:13:36,015 House payments or to prevent foreclosures or to create new mortgages 251 00:13:36,255 --> 00:13:37,964 to make it easier to buy a home. 252 00:13:38,204 --> 00:13:42,045 And so that's all great and wonderful, but in a lot of times with the federal 253 00:13:42,045 --> 00:13:46,694 government, either through the Federal Housing Administration or something 254 00:13:46,694 --> 00:13:53,324 called the Homeowners Loan Corporation, they would do things like requiring 255 00:13:53,324 --> 00:13:57,224 that you put a racially restrictive covenant into a deed before they would 256 00:13:57,224 --> 00:13:59,295 provide federal mortgage insurance. 257 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:00,540 Okay. 258 00:14:00,599 --> 00:14:03,839 Or they would say something called redlining, which I think a lot 259 00:14:03,839 --> 00:14:05,370 of listeners have heard about. 260 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,420 They'd say, well, you know, if you wanna get federal insurance or if you wanna 261 00:14:09,420 --> 00:14:12,240 get a federal loan, you know you have to. 262 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,560 It has to be in a certain area and it's gotta be a good place to be able to lend. 263 00:14:17,295 --> 00:14:20,085 So they would send these examiners out and they would look at all the 264 00:14:20,085 --> 00:14:23,715 black neighborhoods and say, oh no, those are not good places to lend. 265 00:14:23,715 --> 00:14:24,975 We're gonna redline them. 266 00:14:25,185 --> 00:14:30,585 And so those neighborhoods wouldn't be eligible for federally insured mortgages. 267 00:14:30,645 --> 00:14:31,065 Right. 268 00:14:31,065 --> 00:14:35,385 So there are lots of ways that housing will segregated and. 269 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,229 It was governmental policy. 270 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,540 And so when the, when you then put on top of that a neighborhood school rule, 271 00:14:42,750 --> 00:14:47,130 it means that the underlying government policy that segregated the neighborhoods 272 00:14:47,130 --> 00:14:49,050 just flowed into the schools. 273 00:14:49,050 --> 00:14:52,709 And then the school authorities would do things on top of that 274 00:14:53,069 --> 00:14:54,584 to further segregate the schools. 275 00:14:55,665 --> 00:14:59,505 I found it interesting when you grow up, you see things and you really 276 00:14:59,505 --> 00:15:01,365 don't understand why they're there. 277 00:15:01,755 --> 00:15:06,525 Like I said, prior to our conversation, I grew up in Corner Gardens, Crans Woods, 278 00:15:06,525 --> 00:15:08,775 so I was like one mile from eight Mile. 279 00:15:09,140 --> 00:15:09,560 Mm-hmm. 280 00:15:09,564 --> 00:15:12,555 And you are familiar with Eight Mile and I did see the wall. 281 00:15:12,555 --> 00:15:12,615 Yeah. 282 00:15:12,645 --> 00:15:17,925 Talk to us about the wall that separated Warren, Michigan from Detroit, Michigan. 283 00:15:18,350 --> 00:15:22,760 That became somewhat a sort of a, a, a sore spot, particularly for 284 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,410 African Americans, um, in Detroit. 285 00:15:24,410 --> 00:15:25,280 So the segregation 286 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:25,910 wall, the eight 287 00:15:25,910 --> 00:15:26,180 mile 288 00:15:26,180 --> 00:15:26,480 wall? 289 00:15:26,540 --> 00:15:26,720 Yeah. 290 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:27,110 Yes. 291 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:28,565 Did you know about that wall when you were 292 00:15:28,565 --> 00:15:28,955 growing up there? 293 00:15:28,955 --> 00:15:32,420 I knew about, I saw the wall, but really didn't understand 294 00:15:32,420 --> 00:15:34,640 the purpose of the wall itself. 295 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:35,840 Yes. 296 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,370 Well, I grew up nearby there too. 297 00:15:37,370 --> 00:15:38,720 'cause Palmer Woods is nearby there too. 298 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:39,335 Yeah, exactly. 299 00:15:39,335 --> 00:15:39,695 Mm-hmm. 300 00:15:39,860 --> 00:15:41,780 I had never even seen the wall. 301 00:15:41,780 --> 00:15:44,960 But if I'd seen it just like you, I wouldn't have known what it was exactly. 302 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,660 It's a half mile long, six feet high. 303 00:15:48,525 --> 00:15:51,315 It's sort of just this wall that separates these streets. 304 00:15:51,855 --> 00:15:56,025 And it turns out that, you know, after the 1930s there was a, there 305 00:15:56,025 --> 00:15:59,235 was a black community living there and they were, they were basically 306 00:15:59,235 --> 00:16:00,465 a self-sustaining community. 307 00:16:00,465 --> 00:16:03,915 They weren't getting a lot of support from the city, and at some 308 00:16:03,915 --> 00:16:07,425 point a white developer wanted to start building houses there. 309 00:16:08,130 --> 00:16:11,220 And this is after the New Deal programs that I told you about. 310 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,940 And so the white developer wants to be able to get access to the 311 00:16:14,940 --> 00:16:18,330 federally backed loans and the insurance programs and all of that. 312 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,710 And basically the Fed stated the developer, well, you know, we did 313 00:16:22,710 --> 00:16:26,220 our little redlining thing and it's not really safe for us to lend there. 314 00:16:26,220 --> 00:16:29,640 But if you build a wall between where you're gonna put your new houses. 315 00:16:30,015 --> 00:16:34,694 And the black neighborhood, then we will provide federal insurance and federally 316 00:16:34,694 --> 00:16:37,814 backed loans on the white side of the wall, but they weren't gonna provide 317 00:16:37,814 --> 00:16:39,074 it on the black side of the wall. 318 00:16:39,255 --> 00:16:44,715 So there's basically a literal segregation wall in Detroit, but you wouldn't know it. 319 00:16:44,715 --> 00:16:47,715 And that's one of the things to think about, the distinction between 320 00:16:47,715 --> 00:16:52,245 what we mean by dejure, by law, and that, and defacto, which means in the 321 00:16:52,245 --> 00:16:56,955 north, you know, this was governmental policy, but it wasn't labeled. 322 00:16:57,630 --> 00:17:01,020 It wasn't obvious, but it was still governmental policy. 323 00:17:01,319 --> 00:17:03,569 And that's the thing that was, and we can talk about the 324 00:17:03,569 --> 00:17:05,430 trial, uh, and the litigation. 325 00:17:05,430 --> 00:17:09,089 That's the thing that the lawyers ended up really wanting to show that 326 00:17:09,089 --> 00:17:12,180 it wasn't just happenstance that black folks happened to live where they live. 327 00:17:12,180 --> 00:17:16,379 It was also because they were contained in certain areas, in certain neighborhoods 328 00:17:16,379 --> 00:17:18,540 and certain sections of Detroit. 329 00:17:18,540 --> 00:17:20,369 And then the school authorities built on that. 330 00:17:20,369 --> 00:17:20,430 I 331 00:17:20,670 --> 00:17:21,569 understand. 332 00:17:21,994 --> 00:17:26,494 You're listening to In Black America with John L. Hanson Jr. We'll be back with 333 00:17:26,494 --> 00:17:28,750 more of our conversation in just a moment. 334 00:17:30,270 --> 00:17:34,050 Every just joining us, I'm Johnny O. Hanson Jr. And you're listening to In 335 00:17:34,050 --> 00:17:39,300 Black America, from KUT Radio, and we speak with Michelle Adams, professor, 336 00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:43,590 law of the University of Michigan Law School, and author of Containment 337 00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:47,850 Detroit Supreme Court and the Battle for Racial Justice in the North. 338 00:17:48,180 --> 00:17:52,350 Professor Adams, did Citizens of Detroit get to the point where 339 00:17:52,350 --> 00:17:56,040 something needed to take place in educating their young children? 340 00:17:56,730 --> 00:17:59,280 This is something else that's a bit of an unknown story 341 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:00,990 that I talk about in my book. 342 00:18:00,990 --> 00:18:06,090 One of the things I didn't know was how much black parents, black folks, 343 00:18:06,090 --> 00:18:10,470 members of the black community were protesting, boycotting, uh, doing 344 00:18:10,470 --> 00:18:12,960 all kinds of actions in the 1960s. 345 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:18,660 So the, so Brown was in 1954, going into the late 1950s and into the 1960s. 346 00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:23,764 There were black folks in lots of northern cities, including Detroit, Los Angeles. 347 00:18:24,125 --> 00:18:28,355 Seattle, et cetera, who were protesting saying the schools are segregated. 348 00:18:28,385 --> 00:18:29,345 We know they're segregated. 349 00:18:29,345 --> 00:18:32,525 We wanna have desegregated schools, we wanna have integrated schools. 350 00:18:32,795 --> 00:18:35,465 And so there's all this community activity that's going on. 351 00:18:35,465 --> 00:18:37,805 Black parents aren't taking this lying down. 352 00:18:38,015 --> 00:18:41,945 And there was actually an early case in Detroit that happened around 1962. 353 00:18:42,575 --> 00:18:44,975 So black folks are aware of this, and one of the things they 354 00:18:44,975 --> 00:18:46,415 want is desegregated schools. 355 00:18:46,415 --> 00:18:48,335 And they wanna be able to have choice, and they don't wanna 356 00:18:48,335 --> 00:18:49,265 have to be told, well, we. 357 00:18:49,490 --> 00:18:53,120 If our kids have to go here, because one of the things they knew, and one of 358 00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:56,195 the, one of the things that, that the plaintiffs in the case I write about. 359 00:18:57,195 --> 00:19:00,165 Some of them talked about was this notion of, or this 360 00:19:00,165 --> 00:19:02,385 theory was Green follows white. 361 00:19:02,504 --> 00:19:05,355 It's not just that the schools are segregated, it's that 362 00:19:05,355 --> 00:19:07,125 they're also under-resourced. 363 00:19:07,334 --> 00:19:12,135 And oftentimes the school authorities wouldn't provide as many resources 364 00:19:12,135 --> 00:19:15,465 as much money to the black schools as to the white schools. 365 00:19:15,465 --> 00:19:18,705 And so the black parents don't let that for very good reasons. 366 00:19:19,034 --> 00:19:20,895 Uh, and they want that to stop. 367 00:19:21,165 --> 00:19:25,365 Who were some of the first individuals that was putting forth this effort to. 368 00:19:26,670 --> 00:19:28,530 Articulate something needed to, to change. 369 00:19:28,860 --> 00:19:33,060 Well, one of the things that's so interesting is you get this guy Detroit's 370 00:19:33,060 --> 00:19:38,910 leading black nationalist, Albert CLE Jr. And the book opens in 1967 and initially 371 00:19:38,910 --> 00:19:43,170 he had been part of this sort of wave of, uh, sort of helping black parents 372 00:19:43,170 --> 00:19:48,030 in Detroit pushed for integration in the early 1960s and then over, over the course 373 00:19:48,030 --> 00:19:51,180 of the 1960s, like many other black folks, for reasons that make a lot of sense. 374 00:19:51,180 --> 00:19:53,730 So just said, you know what, we wanna get white people out of the schools. 375 00:19:54,420 --> 00:19:57,210 This is the moment of, of what's called community control. 376 00:19:57,659 --> 00:20:01,440 Where the theory is is that the, the school district, the, the 377 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,340 school authorities are running a separate and unequal school system, 378 00:20:05,340 --> 00:20:08,280 and there's no reason to believe white folks are gonna change that. 379 00:20:08,925 --> 00:20:13,274 And so let's get white teachers and white administrators out of the school system. 380 00:20:13,544 --> 00:20:17,264 Let's turn, let's let the black parents and black teachers run the schools 381 00:20:17,264 --> 00:20:20,205 and we're gonna have a more fair and equal and a better school system. 382 00:20:20,415 --> 00:20:22,725 And so he really starts pushing for this. 383 00:20:23,115 --> 00:20:26,745 And the story that I tell in my book is one where you have this community 384 00:20:26,745 --> 00:20:31,815 activity and then at the same time you have a changeover in the politics 385 00:20:31,815 --> 00:20:35,205 of the Detroit School Board where you suddenly have the school board 386 00:20:35,205 --> 00:20:36,825 that actually cares about this. 387 00:20:37,199 --> 00:20:40,530 Right, so you've got more liberals who take over the school board, and so 388 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,909 you've got this kind of confrontation between clay, sort of sort of throwing 389 00:20:44,909 --> 00:20:48,600 down the gauntlet to the school board saying, you know, we're tired of this. 390 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,010 We want community control. 391 00:20:50,565 --> 00:20:54,555 Then the head of the school, the what, who becomes the head of the school board, 392 00:20:54,555 --> 00:20:58,755 A guy named Abraham's Wording, who's really sort of a big integrationist, 393 00:20:59,085 --> 00:21:04,185 ultimately decides or, or tries to push through a limited integration plan in the 394 00:21:04,185 --> 00:21:08,655 city of Detroit, uh, having to do with, with integrating the city's high schools. 395 00:21:09,075 --> 00:21:17,685 And he does this and the state of Michigan turns around and passes a law, basically 396 00:21:17,685 --> 00:21:19,995 voiding this limited integration plan. 397 00:21:20,385 --> 00:21:22,425 Right, so, so think about this from this perspective. 398 00:21:22,695 --> 00:21:27,345 It's as if the state is saying you may not have desegregated 399 00:21:27,345 --> 00:21:28,785 schools in the city of Detroit. 400 00:21:28,815 --> 00:21:31,095 You want, you have an integration plan, guess what? 401 00:21:31,095 --> 00:21:31,755 You can't have it. 402 00:21:32,235 --> 00:21:35,265 And that's when the NAACP gets involved because they say, this 403 00:21:35,265 --> 00:21:36,855 feels kind of southern, right? 404 00:21:36,915 --> 00:21:39,435 You have you passing a law that prevents integration. 405 00:21:40,155 --> 00:21:42,825 NAACP Detroit branch decides to sue. 406 00:21:42,825 --> 00:21:45,975 And that's really when the litigation that I write about gets started. 407 00:21:46,395 --> 00:21:49,425 Who sat to judge the case? 408 00:21:49,725 --> 00:21:50,895 Milli Bradley, 409 00:21:51,225 --> 00:21:52,605 really interesting guy. 410 00:21:52,695 --> 00:21:55,905 Had been a guy named Steven Roth, uh, was an immigrant to 411 00:21:55,905 --> 00:21:57,285 the United States from Hungary. 412 00:21:57,375 --> 00:22:00,735 Grew up in Flint, went to the University of Michigan law school, part of the 413 00:22:00,735 --> 00:22:03,315 conservative wing of the Democratic Party. 414 00:22:03,525 --> 00:22:08,655 Was very skeptical about the NAACP's claims when the cases first filed. 415 00:22:09,015 --> 00:22:11,145 Didn't think there was anything wrong with Detroit schools. 416 00:22:11,145 --> 00:22:12,585 Didn't think they were segregated. 417 00:22:12,675 --> 00:22:16,395 Really doubted the idea that there could be state imposed segregation 418 00:22:16,395 --> 00:22:17,895 above the Mason-Dixon line. 419 00:22:18,225 --> 00:22:19,455 So initially he's like, get outta my courtroom. 420 00:22:20,294 --> 00:22:21,794 Very, very skeptical. 421 00:22:22,335 --> 00:22:27,254 And then over the course of a couple of years, and as the NAACP broadens the 422 00:22:27,254 --> 00:22:33,705 case, and they have this big trial in downtown Detroit, 41 day trial, 10 days 423 00:22:33,705 --> 00:22:37,605 of which were about the housing stuff that I talked about a couple of minutes ago. 424 00:22:37,605 --> 00:22:42,524 It was about racially restrictive covenants and how the federal 425 00:22:42,524 --> 00:22:46,995 government had an unequal system of mortgage lending and mortgage support. 426 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,090 And about how public housing in Detroit was intentionally, racially 427 00:22:51,090 --> 00:22:53,550 segregated and about white. 428 00:22:54,375 --> 00:22:57,615 Homeowners associations with violent tendencies and a whole lot 429 00:22:57,615 --> 00:23:01,395 of other things, separate racially separate brokers association, and 430 00:23:01,395 --> 00:23:03,765 then all the things the school authorities were doing on top of it. 431 00:23:03,795 --> 00:23:05,055 And over time. 432 00:23:05,475 --> 00:23:08,685 One of the things that happens with this judge is he's open to facts. 433 00:23:08,715 --> 00:23:09,375 He's skeptical, he. 434 00:23:10,435 --> 00:23:13,405 He doesn't necessarily believe it at the beginning, but one of the most 435 00:23:13,405 --> 00:23:17,575 important things that comes out of the book is the idea that people can 436 00:23:17,575 --> 00:23:19,645 be convinced by things called facts. 437 00:23:20,125 --> 00:23:22,524 And the lawyers did an incredibly good job. 438 00:23:22,524 --> 00:23:23,340 They told a story. 439 00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:27,450 They put a story before him and he was able to see that. 440 00:23:27,450 --> 00:23:31,440 In fact, the reason why the schools in Detroit were segregated had to do with 441 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,200 state and local governmental action. 442 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:39,300 I found it interesting Alexander Richie and how his conversion 443 00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:43,650 helped solidified what Judge Roth was gonna eventually rule on. 444 00:23:43,890 --> 00:23:47,250 John, I, I love how closely you've read this book, and I'm so 445 00:23:47,250 --> 00:23:50,280 excited that, that you're, that we're having this conversation. 446 00:23:50,910 --> 00:23:52,590 So there's a guy named Alexander Richie. 447 00:23:52,865 --> 00:23:56,855 And you know, white Detroiters who are living mostly sort of 448 00:23:56,855 --> 00:23:58,220 in the northern part mm-hmm. 449 00:23:58,300 --> 00:23:58,780 Of the city. 450 00:23:58,780 --> 00:23:58,790 Mm-hmm. 451 00:23:58,985 --> 00:23:59,315 Right. 452 00:23:59,645 --> 00:24:02,225 Sort of get wind of this lawsuit. 453 00:24:02,465 --> 00:24:06,155 And they get wind of the idea that in fact there might be some, some change, 454 00:24:06,155 --> 00:24:07,625 some racial change in the schools. 455 00:24:07,625 --> 00:24:09,695 And of course they want community control too. 456 00:24:09,695 --> 00:24:11,044 They want to control their own schools. 457 00:24:11,345 --> 00:24:15,875 And so this group called Citizens Committee for Better Education, it's 458 00:24:15,875 --> 00:24:18,215 a fancy word called intervention, but what it means is they actually 459 00:24:18,215 --> 00:24:22,115 become part of this lawsuit and their lawyer is Alexander Richie. 460 00:24:22,860 --> 00:24:27,060 Alexander Ricci is not exactly anybody's vision of an integrationist, right? 461 00:24:27,060 --> 00:24:32,610 He's there to protect white Detroiters interests, but he, like Roth is sitting 462 00:24:32,610 --> 00:24:36,930 in the courtroom day after day after day two, and he starts to understand 463 00:24:36,930 --> 00:24:39,180 how things really work in Detroit. 464 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,920 And also he starts to understand that if in fact the court rules that. 465 00:24:44,460 --> 00:24:45,180 This is this. 466 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,960 This is a brown violation, just like below the Mason-Dixon line. 467 00:24:49,170 --> 00:24:52,470 The question then becomes, well, what's the remedy for that? 468 00:24:52,980 --> 00:24:56,610 In the south, the remedy was desegregation In the north. 469 00:24:56,610 --> 00:25:01,710 If the remedy was desegregation, then maybe all the white folks who were in 470 00:25:01,710 --> 00:25:03,270 the suburbs ought to be included too. 471 00:25:04,004 --> 00:25:07,605 Right, because a lot of the evidence that's coming into Judge Roth's courtroom 472 00:25:07,605 --> 00:25:09,885 doesn't stop at the eight mile line. 473 00:25:09,885 --> 00:25:12,405 Doesn't stop at the boundary of the city of Detroit. 474 00:25:12,915 --> 00:25:15,825 And so white Detroiters thought, if there's gonna be 475 00:25:15,825 --> 00:25:18,135 integration, shouldn't just be us. 476 00:25:18,465 --> 00:25:18,645 Right? 477 00:25:18,645 --> 00:25:20,294 It shouldn't just be the white Detroiters. 478 00:25:20,294 --> 00:25:23,595 It should include the white folks in the suburbs. 479 00:25:23,655 --> 00:25:25,455 Suburbs are almost entirely white. 480 00:25:26,190 --> 00:25:30,030 Very, very difficult for black families to buy housing and then be able to 481 00:25:30,030 --> 00:25:32,970 attend school in suburban locations. 482 00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:39,030 And so the way in which we end up getting this idea that in fact you could have this 483 00:25:39,030 --> 00:25:44,970 remedy for state imposed governmentally imposed segregation in Detroit schools, 484 00:25:44,970 --> 00:25:48,720 that we should include the larger metropolitan area doesn't come from 485 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,070 the naacp, doesn't come from the black plaintiffs, doesn't come from the black 486 00:25:53,070 --> 00:25:55,680 parents, it comes from Detroit's whites. 487 00:25:56,084 --> 00:25:59,580 Who say and and their lawyer, Alexander Ricci, who says, you know what? 488 00:26:00,314 --> 00:26:04,004 I think maybe we should look across the city line. 489 00:26:04,095 --> 00:26:06,524 If we're gonna have, maybe we should try to think about having 490 00:26:06,524 --> 00:26:08,205 what's called a metropolitan remedy. 491 00:26:08,205 --> 00:26:10,605 So that's really something interesting, and I think that's something that, 492 00:26:11,054 --> 00:26:12,314 that most readers don't know. 493 00:26:12,314 --> 00:26:13,004 I didn't know. 494 00:26:13,004 --> 00:26:14,445 Most law professors don't know. 495 00:26:14,564 --> 00:26:15,435 Incredibly interesting. 496 00:26:15,645 --> 00:26:16,304 Exactly. 497 00:26:16,574 --> 00:26:20,330 Before round our time, professor Adams talk to us about. 498 00:26:20,980 --> 00:26:26,830 Damon Keith and his decision with the Pontiac school system that was similar in 499 00:26:26,830 --> 00:26:28,870 nature to what was happening in Detroit. 500 00:26:29,020 --> 00:26:32,680 So I had the great, wonderful honor of interviewing Damon 501 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,010 Keith before he passed in 2015. 502 00:26:36,490 --> 00:26:40,360 And Damon Keith is somebody who I had heard about for many years and 503 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:47,020 sort of a legend in Detroit and Damon Keith was a, a federal trial court. 504 00:26:47,429 --> 00:26:50,939 Judge in Pontiac and there was a lawsuit brought in Pontiac, 505 00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:52,740 pretty similar kind of lawsuit. 506 00:26:52,860 --> 00:26:57,870 And Damon Keith decided, basically found that the Pontiac 507 00:26:57,870 --> 00:26:59,850 schools were also separate. 508 00:26:59,939 --> 00:27:03,060 You know, they, they were running a separate but quote unquote equal school 509 00:27:03,060 --> 00:27:06,840 system in Pontiac, and so he ordered the Pontiac schools b desegregated. 510 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:12,190 And in he was the subject of death threats and all kinds of other stuff. 511 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,170 And so I had a chance to talk with him about that. 512 00:27:14,170 --> 00:27:18,100 But he knew Judge Raw and he understood what was happening in Detroit and he was 513 00:27:18,100 --> 00:27:23,050 sort of part of a larger group of black judges that I talk about in the book Who, 514 00:27:23,170 --> 00:27:25,840 one of the things I talk about is the idea of like what I asked the question, 515 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,280 what does it mean to be a good judge? 516 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,090 Michelle Adams, law professor at the University of Michigan Law School 517 00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:34,870 and author of Containment Detroit, the Supreme Court, and a Battle 518 00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:36,580 for Racial Justice in the North. 519 00:27:37,335 --> 00:27:40,575 If you have questions, comments, or suggestions as to future in 520 00:27:40,575 --> 00:27:45,825 Black America programs, email us at In Black america@kut.org. 521 00:27:46,905 --> 00:27:49,935 Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. 522 00:27:50,504 --> 00:27:54,764 Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook. 523 00:27:54,795 --> 00:28:00,135 Nx, you're gonna previous programs online@kut.org. 524 00:28:00,645 --> 00:28:03,915 Also, you can listen to a special collection of In Black America 525 00:28:03,915 --> 00:28:09,795 programs at American Archive of Public Broadcasting, that American archives.org. 526 00:28:10,815 --> 00:28:13,875 The views and opinions expressed on this program are not 527 00:28:13,875 --> 00:28:15,675 necessary though of this station. 528 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,120 Or of the University of Texas at Austin in Black America is a 529 00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:24,440 listener supportive production of KUT and KUTX in Austin, Texas. 530 00:28:24,740 --> 00:28:29,030 You can support our work by donating@supportthispodcast.org. 531 00:28:29,390 --> 00:28:31,430 Until we have the opportunity again for 532 00:28:31,430 --> 00:28:33,500 technical producer David Alvarez. 533 00:28:33,860 --> 00:28:37,395 I'm John L. 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