1 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,280 From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio. 2 00:00:20,670 --> 00:00:22,800 This is in Black America. 3 00:00:23,580 --> 00:00:24,570 I really think it depends on how. 4 00:00:25,410 --> 00:00:28,020 How you, how you see yourself in the world. 5 00:00:28,020 --> 00:00:31,200 I mean, most many women at that time, not so much now. 6 00:00:31,290 --> 00:00:31,380 Mm-hmm. 7 00:00:31,620 --> 00:00:36,000 But at that time, people were looking for, uh, a different kind of life. 8 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:41,190 I was looking or thinking, I don't know if I was consciously doing it, but I was 9 00:00:41,190 --> 00:00:46,075 thinking of the world, not just of the, my little place in one place at a time. 10 00:00:46,949 --> 00:00:50,940 I was looking to develop not only more intelligence, but more compa, 11 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,839 more compassion for the rest of the world and other people besides myself. 12 00:00:55,290 --> 00:01:00,450 And so meeting people who were in the civil rights movement, which provoked my 13 00:01:00,450 --> 00:01:04,394 going south, talking to them and listening to them and the passion and, and. 14 00:01:04,709 --> 00:01:09,119 The, the sense of duty to help other people. 15 00:01:09,119 --> 00:01:12,210 All of those things became a part of the mix in my head. 16 00:01:12,539 --> 00:01:16,979 Denise Nicholas, actor, activist, writer, and author of Finding Home, 17 00:01:16,979 --> 00:01:19,289 a memoir published by Bolden Books. 18 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,250 Nicholas is the best known for portrayals of high school guiding 19 00:01:24,250 --> 00:01:32,110 counselor Liz McIntyre on room 2 22 on A BC TV from 1969 to 1974, and 20 00:01:32,110 --> 00:01:38,290 Harriet DeLong on the TV version of In the Heat of the Night on NBC and CVS. 21 00:01:38,945 --> 00:01:42,695 In a memoir of Finding home, she explored her six decade journey 22 00:01:43,175 --> 00:01:44,855 through TV and film stardom. 23 00:01:45,245 --> 00:01:49,565 Our experiences in Hollywood have shaped her the real stories behind her 24 00:01:49,565 --> 00:01:54,425 marriage to build with us her other two marriages and subsequent romantic life, 25 00:01:54,815 --> 00:01:58,895 and how she reinvented her creative life to become a celebrated novel. 26 00:01:59,610 --> 00:02:02,880 Nicholas began the career as a founding member of the Free Southern 27 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,780 Theater, joined Mississippi and Louisiana during the most violent 28 00:02:06,780 --> 00:02:08,790 days of the Civil Rights Movement. 29 00:02:09,750 --> 00:02:14,549 I am Johnny O. Hanson Jr. And welcome to another edition of In Black America 30 00:02:15,090 --> 00:02:20,160 on this week's program, finding Home with Denise Nicholas in Black America. 31 00:02:20,310 --> 00:02:24,480 I had a friend who was in her workshop, and this is all after, in the Heat of 32 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,424 the night, was, uh, was, uh, stopped. 33 00:02:27,075 --> 00:02:30,255 So I had started writing on In the Heat of the Night 'cause Carol 34 00:02:30,255 --> 00:02:31,665 O'Connor gave me a shot to write. 35 00:02:31,665 --> 00:02:36,225 So I did six episodes and then I thought by the, at the end of that I said, okay, 36 00:02:36,225 --> 00:02:38,955 now I'm in the lane that I wanna be in. 37 00:02:39,195 --> 00:02:41,355 I'm writing and I'm getting paid to write. 38 00:02:41,415 --> 00:02:44,955 So then my friend told friend told me about Janet Fit's workshop. 39 00:02:44,955 --> 00:02:49,545 So I went and, and audition by sending her something that I was working on 40 00:02:49,725 --> 00:02:51,495 and she accepted me in the workshop. 41 00:02:51,945 --> 00:02:55,275 So Freshwater Road comes out of that workshop every. 42 00:02:55,565 --> 00:02:56,734 Single word. 43 00:02:56,825 --> 00:03:02,375 So it was, um, about a three and a half year writing period to get that book 44 00:03:02,375 --> 00:03:07,385 done, to get it written, and with a lot of good help from people in the workshop, 45 00:03:07,385 --> 00:03:09,725 because they were, it was critical. 46 00:03:09,725 --> 00:03:13,984 You had to present your work and you had to accept the criticism, discuss 47 00:03:13,984 --> 00:03:16,204 it, and then go back and do rewrites 48 00:03:16,475 --> 00:03:19,654 growing up, middle class in 1950, Detroit. 49 00:03:19,950 --> 00:03:24,090 Nicholas experienced a vibrant culture and harsh reality of a segregated 50 00:03:24,090 --> 00:03:27,900 city, which profoundly influenced her perspective on identity. 51 00:03:28,530 --> 00:03:32,880 Nicholas entered the University of Michigan as a pre-law student, but dropped 52 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,750 outta the university to tour the Deep South with the free Southern Theater 53 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,120 at the height of civil rights movement. 54 00:03:39,799 --> 00:03:43,579 A few years later, she would gain national fame on the groundbreaking A 55 00:03:43,579 --> 00:03:47,480 BC TV comedy drama series, room 2 22. 56 00:03:47,869 --> 00:03:51,890 In her book, finding Home Nickley explores the ways of experiences Hollywood 57 00:03:51,890 --> 00:03:54,170 shaped her understanding of success. 58 00:03:54,170 --> 00:03:56,030 Intimacy and commitment. 59 00:03:56,540 --> 00:04:00,799 She candidly discusses the challenges she face as a trailblazing actress 60 00:04:00,799 --> 00:04:04,700 of color, shedding light on the systematic barriers and biases 61 00:04:04,700 --> 00:04:06,350 within the entertainment industry. 62 00:04:06,739 --> 00:04:11,570 Nicholas presented emotionally charged and richly complex picture of the realities 63 00:04:11,570 --> 00:04:16,070 of personal and professional success as an African American woman in America. 64 00:04:16,390 --> 00:04:21,220 Over the past 50 years, you begin your book by talking about your mom. 65 00:04:21,220 --> 00:04:22,180 Why start there? 66 00:04:22,510 --> 00:04:30,010 I think because like with, with most women, the mother character has the 67 00:04:30,010 --> 00:04:36,580 most profound influence on your life because moms are the ones who, who 68 00:04:36,970 --> 00:04:43,360 prepare you for growing up more, much more so, and, and I guess dads or uncles. 69 00:04:44,010 --> 00:04:46,410 Have some of the same function with men. 70 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:47,310 Yeah. 71 00:04:47,490 --> 00:04:51,480 Now, when you began, this is like your second book. 72 00:04:51,900 --> 00:04:52,320 Yes. 73 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,710 Talk to us about that first book that you actually had published. 74 00:04:55,710 --> 00:04:56,820 Freshwater Road. 75 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:02,100 Well, that book is, I think Freshwater Road is my favorite. 76 00:05:02,475 --> 00:05:04,665 Piece of writing that I've done so far. 77 00:05:04,665 --> 00:05:11,715 I love this memoir, but Freshwater Road came out of a love I had for the Civil 78 00:05:11,715 --> 00:05:15,315 rights movement and the things that happened in the South during those years. 79 00:05:15,795 --> 00:05:19,275 And I was there for a part of that time with the free Southern Theater. 80 00:05:19,770 --> 00:05:24,150 So I tour toured around Mississippi and Louisiana and really that was 81 00:05:24,150 --> 00:05:25,890 my first time in the deep South. 82 00:05:26,340 --> 00:05:32,550 So I learned a lot and I sat on it for years and years as 83 00:05:32,550 --> 00:05:34,290 it percolated inside of me. 84 00:05:34,290 --> 00:05:37,950 And I read and studied about the history of the South and different things. 85 00:05:37,950 --> 00:05:41,969 So when I got around to riding Freshwater Road, I was. 86 00:05:43,365 --> 00:05:47,055 So deeply passionate about it, uh, is almost like I couldn't 87 00:05:47,055 --> 00:05:48,645 breathe until I got it done. 88 00:05:49,245 --> 00:05:53,354 And because I carried it from the time I was in Mississippi in the sixties 89 00:05:53,565 --> 00:05:55,844 until I started writing Freshwater Road. 90 00:05:55,844 --> 00:06:01,515 I carried everything from that period in my head, in my memory, and in my heart 91 00:06:01,544 --> 00:06:06,690 because I knew, I, I knew that someday I would write something about that period. 92 00:06:07,425 --> 00:06:10,365 So I think it's, uh, I love finding home. 93 00:06:10,365 --> 00:06:14,415 It's a more difficult, in, in a sense for me, a more difficult task 94 00:06:14,895 --> 00:06:17,745 to write directly about myself. 95 00:06:18,225 --> 00:06:23,715 And so, you know, I was, uh, I was, it was a, a much more difficult write for me. 96 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:29,610 My publisher, Doug Zebo, a agate had to continually push me forward 97 00:06:29,789 --> 00:06:32,640 'cause I was ready to throw in the towel about 50 times. 98 00:06:33,270 --> 00:06:38,039 And then, you know, with Freshwater Road, nobody had to do anything. 99 00:06:38,039 --> 00:06:41,550 'cause I was so in love with the project itself. 100 00:06:41,849 --> 00:06:45,900 I say you born in Detroit, but you all eventually moved to to Marlin, 101 00:06:45,900 --> 00:06:47,789 Michigan, which is outside Detroit. 102 00:06:48,180 --> 00:06:53,125 Talk to us about living in Detroit prior to you all moving to Marlin. 103 00:06:54,210 --> 00:06:59,370 Well, I was pretty young, you know, um, 'cause I, when we moved out there, 104 00:07:00,510 --> 00:07:04,470 I was put ahead a, a full grade and I ended up in the ninth grade when I 105 00:07:04,470 --> 00:07:05,880 should have been in the eighth grade. 106 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:11,130 So back in Detroit at that time, you know, the city was changing 107 00:07:11,130 --> 00:07:14,100 and it was evident that the city was changing, not for the better. 108 00:07:14,490 --> 00:07:20,490 And schools were going down because of white flight and budgets and so forth. 109 00:07:20,490 --> 00:07:20,820 And so. 110 00:07:21,810 --> 00:07:28,500 Uh, my mother and my stepfather thought at best that I go to a different high 111 00:07:28,500 --> 00:07:31,380 school, go to high school where he was, you know, out in the town where 112 00:07:31,380 --> 00:07:35,159 they were, were living because he worked out at the federal prison there. 113 00:07:35,669 --> 00:07:40,770 So that was, for me, it was difficult because I didn't wanna leave the city. 114 00:07:40,770 --> 00:07:45,510 I, I see myself as a city girl, and the little town that we 115 00:07:45,510 --> 00:07:47,310 were moving to was very small. 116 00:07:47,805 --> 00:07:52,335 And it was, uh, we were the only black family in the town at that time. 117 00:07:52,755 --> 00:07:56,715 So that was also difficult because as you know, and I know and everybody knows 118 00:07:56,715 --> 00:07:58,935 Detroit has an abundance of black people. 119 00:07:59,025 --> 00:08:02,145 So, uh, that's what I was accustomed to. 120 00:08:02,805 --> 00:08:03,400 So I went. 121 00:08:04,234 --> 00:08:09,635 You know, I kind of fought a little bit with my mom 'cause I wanted to 122 00:08:09,635 --> 00:08:11,734 stay in Detroit with other relatives. 123 00:08:11,734 --> 00:08:14,945 I didn't wanna leave the city, but eventually I went on out to Milan 124 00:08:14,945 --> 00:08:16,594 and finished high school out there. 125 00:08:17,255 --> 00:08:19,955 Uh, but it was difficult for me because of culture. 126 00:08:19,955 --> 00:08:21,905 Culture, uh, differences. 127 00:08:21,995 --> 00:08:22,984 Uh, absolutely. 128 00:08:23,434 --> 00:08:26,224 Now there was a learning experience once you were. 129 00:08:26,849 --> 00:08:29,309 Admitted and attended the University of Michigan. 130 00:08:29,309 --> 00:08:34,709 Talk to us about that experience prior to you going to the Free Southern Theater 131 00:08:34,714 --> 00:08:35,044 Theater. 132 00:08:35,549 --> 00:08:40,110 Well, I, I went to, I was a freshman at University of Michigan when I was 17, 133 00:08:41,100 --> 00:08:45,810 and which is kind of, you know, I was a little bit young, but, and, and I think 134 00:08:45,810 --> 00:08:51,720 that when looking back on it, my youth translates to immaturity of course. 135 00:08:51,780 --> 00:08:54,564 So my, my grades were good. 136 00:08:55,770 --> 00:08:59,040 My scholarship was good, but. 137 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:06,120 I was still a kid and University of Michigan, uh, as I'm sure you know, is 138 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:11,280 a very sophisticated, very large campus with, uh, it was very swift moving. 139 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,260 It felt more like a little New York. 140 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,570 So, you know, so it was, what I say in the book is Ann Arbor picked 141 00:09:18,570 --> 00:09:22,590 me up on my bootstraps and turned me every which way but loose. 142 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,640 So it was great and it was challenging. 143 00:09:27,105 --> 00:09:31,065 And I refer to it constantly in my life because in a sense I loved it 144 00:09:31,065 --> 00:09:35,415 there, but once I went south, I wasn't going back to school at that time. 145 00:09:35,415 --> 00:09:38,835 I eventually did go back to school here and graduated from 146 00:09:38,835 --> 00:09:40,515 University of Southern California. 147 00:09:40,995 --> 00:09:46,155 So, but Ann Arbor is still, is like in my heart and in my mind that is, 148 00:09:46,185 --> 00:09:48,225 it's a, it's beautiful memories. 149 00:09:48,225 --> 00:09:54,255 It's some kind of, uh, I kind of idyllic, you know, so, but I loved 150 00:09:54,255 --> 00:09:55,695 it and I absolutely loved it. 151 00:09:56,235 --> 00:10:00,345 Now you talk about your first roommate when you were at the University of 152 00:10:00,345 --> 00:10:02,595 Michigan, and that didn't last too long. 153 00:10:03,135 --> 00:10:07,185 But also during that period, I guess you found your blackness. 154 00:10:07,875 --> 00:10:09,285 I'm not sure what that means. 155 00:10:09,285 --> 00:10:10,095 What does that mean? 156 00:10:10,215 --> 00:10:15,495 Well, you became more culturally and civic aware of what was going on around, around 157 00:10:15,495 --> 00:10:17,115 you and what was happening in the world. 158 00:10:17,895 --> 00:10:20,985 Well, yes, because the civil rights movement came to campus. 159 00:10:20,985 --> 00:10:21,075 Mm-hmm. 160 00:10:21,315 --> 00:10:21,525 Yes. 161 00:10:22,425 --> 00:10:26,415 You know, and remember around that time too, and just a little bit later, the 162 00:10:26,415 --> 00:10:30,285 Vietnam War right, was, um, heating up. 163 00:10:30,345 --> 00:10:34,365 So there were plenty of things going on on campus in regard to 164 00:10:34,365 --> 00:10:39,795 both those occurrences or issues, civil rights and the Vietnam War. 165 00:10:39,795 --> 00:10:43,905 There was a lot of activity there, and I got to, um. 166 00:10:44,445 --> 00:10:49,545 One of my roommates, Martha Prescott, who still, who's now moved back to Michigan, 167 00:10:49,995 --> 00:10:53,355 was the person who really introduced me to the Civil Rights movement. 168 00:10:53,355 --> 00:10:59,595 She was very active and very, very smart, and I think because of influence, her 169 00:10:59,595 --> 00:11:04,725 influence and other things going on At the time when I met Gil Moses and he was. 170 00:11:05,385 --> 00:11:08,685 Setting up this theater to be a part of the Civil Rights movement. 171 00:11:08,685 --> 00:11:12,735 I thought that was my entree into the Civil Rights Movement. 172 00:11:13,185 --> 00:11:18,105 Now, once you attended the University of Michigan, but also you went off 173 00:11:18,105 --> 00:11:22,455 to New York, why was that a learning experience, uh, for you to help 174 00:11:22,455 --> 00:11:24,165 shape the lady that you are today? 175 00:11:25,575 --> 00:11:30,165 Well, I, I think, I really think it depends on how. 176 00:11:30,915 --> 00:11:33,555 How you, how you see yourself in the world. 177 00:11:33,555 --> 00:11:36,765 I mean, most many women at that time, not so much now. 178 00:11:36,825 --> 00:11:36,915 Mm-hmm. 179 00:11:37,155 --> 00:11:41,745 But at that time, people were looking for, uh, a different kind of life. 180 00:11:41,745 --> 00:11:43,635 I was looking. 181 00:11:45,105 --> 00:11:48,824 Or thinking, I don't know if I was consciously doing it, but I was thinking 182 00:11:49,185 --> 00:11:53,595 of the world, not just of the my little place, in one place at a time. 183 00:11:53,955 --> 00:11:58,095 I was looking to develop not only more intelligence, but more compa, 184 00:11:58,125 --> 00:12:02,055 more compassion for the rest of the world and other people besides myself. 185 00:12:02,415 --> 00:12:02,685 And so. 186 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,560 Meeting people who were in the civil rights movement, which provoked my 187 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:12,810 going south, talking to them, listening to them, and the passion and the, the, 188 00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:16,290 the sense of duty to help other people. 189 00:12:16,290 --> 00:12:22,230 All of those things became a part of the mix in my head that led me to 190 00:12:22,230 --> 00:12:26,910 the south, but also fed me as a woman who wanted to, to have a place in 191 00:12:26,910 --> 00:12:29,670 the world that wasn't just, you know. 192 00:12:30,915 --> 00:12:34,155 I don't wanna say just because it's very important, housewife and mother. 193 00:12:34,455 --> 00:12:36,375 I never really wanted to have children. 194 00:12:36,375 --> 00:12:41,235 I wanted to work and that's basically the way my life is, has played out. 195 00:12:41,235 --> 00:12:46,635 So I'm a worker bee, I always was, and I guess I will be, uh, until the end. 196 00:12:46,635 --> 00:12:49,245 It's my, it's my comfort zone. 197 00:12:49,605 --> 00:12:50,475 Absolutely. 198 00:12:50,895 --> 00:12:51,314 So 199 00:12:51,855 --> 00:12:56,985 is it true that prior to you becoming an actress and, and author and writer, 200 00:12:56,985 --> 00:12:58,395 you wanted to become an attorney? 201 00:12:59,745 --> 00:13:01,785 Uh, I flirted with that for a while. 202 00:13:02,084 --> 00:13:02,625 Yeah. 203 00:13:03,194 --> 00:13:05,204 Uh, I had to, oh, okay. 204 00:13:05,204 --> 00:13:07,785 So I, I thought about becoming a, an attorney. 205 00:13:07,844 --> 00:13:08,055 Mm-hmm. 206 00:13:08,745 --> 00:13:11,474 I used to also think about being in the foreign service. 207 00:13:12,525 --> 00:13:12,645 Okay. 208 00:13:12,645 --> 00:13:15,314 Being, you know, probably working for the CIA or something 209 00:13:15,314 --> 00:13:18,255 and that would've been a hoot. 210 00:13:18,555 --> 00:13:23,055 And then, um, yeah, those are the two things, and, and they 211 00:13:23,055 --> 00:13:27,464 were both things that would take me up and out into the world. 212 00:13:27,525 --> 00:13:28,334 Absolutely. 213 00:13:28,770 --> 00:13:32,790 You and your, your writing, you talk fondly about your grandparents. 214 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,370 Talk to us about your grandparents. 215 00:13:36,209 --> 00:13:36,900 Oh, okay. 216 00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:38,610 My grandparents on my dad's side. 217 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:38,819 Right. 218 00:13:38,819 --> 00:13:39,150 Yeah. 219 00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:42,719 We lived with them when we were very, my brother and I were very little. 220 00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:46,350 They were really sturdy. 221 00:13:47,130 --> 00:13:48,449 Strong people. 222 00:13:48,449 --> 00:13:54,060 They came up to Detroit from Kentucky in about, uh, 1919. 223 00:13:54,060 --> 00:13:56,850 'cause my dad was born in Detroit in 1920. 224 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:03,329 Uh, and he had an older sister, my Aunt Flora, who was born, I guess, I 225 00:14:03,329 --> 00:14:05,220 guess they both were born in Detroit. 226 00:14:05,730 --> 00:14:11,490 So that part of my family, my dad's part of the family. 227 00:14:11,865 --> 00:14:20,355 Were, I, I, it's hard, you know, they were working class black people who had middle 228 00:14:20,355 --> 00:14:24,975 class aspirations and accomplishments. 229 00:14:25,245 --> 00:14:29,714 For example, the house that they lived in in Detroit, which is a house my 230 00:14:29,714 --> 00:14:35,415 brother and I were in repeatedly as little people, was not a big rich house. 231 00:14:35,415 --> 00:14:38,745 It was a kind of a working class people house and a working 232 00:14:38,745 --> 00:14:40,935 class people neighborhood. 233 00:14:41,535 --> 00:14:42,495 But very nice. 234 00:14:42,495 --> 00:14:45,584 Everything structured, everything cared for everything. 235 00:14:45,854 --> 00:14:47,865 You know, the backyard was like a park. 236 00:14:48,165 --> 00:14:51,915 The front yard was small, but it was constantly taken care of. 237 00:14:52,515 --> 00:14:58,545 And I think I learned from my grandmother, mostly from my grandmother, the this 238 00:14:58,545 --> 00:15:02,265 quality of taking care of property because she, I mean, this woman worked every 239 00:15:02,265 --> 00:15:06,555 day and took care of her home and yard. 240 00:15:07,245 --> 00:15:08,355 She did everything. 241 00:15:08,925 --> 00:15:12,885 So she was one of the primary role models for me. 242 00:15:12,885 --> 00:15:14,055 As I grew up. 243 00:15:14,325 --> 00:15:19,065 I knew immediately that as soon as I got, you know, to be an adult 244 00:15:19,065 --> 00:15:20,715 woman, that I was gonna own property. 245 00:15:20,715 --> 00:15:22,035 There was no question about it. 246 00:15:22,035 --> 00:15:26,625 If I had to, you know, take a job, take 40 jobs, I was gonna own property. 247 00:15:26,625 --> 00:15:30,165 That, that's because they taught me the value of that. 248 00:15:30,435 --> 00:15:32,985 She also taught me how to. 249 00:15:33,375 --> 00:15:39,584 How to, I don't know how to create a home that has beautiful things and you know, 250 00:15:39,584 --> 00:15:45,285 gorgeous things, and it's just a matter, of course, it's not anything special. 251 00:15:45,314 --> 00:15:48,495 That's the way you're supposed to live, surrounded by as much 252 00:15:48,495 --> 00:15:52,574 beauty as you can put around you with plants and trees and flowers. 253 00:15:52,665 --> 00:15:56,685 I mean, it's a very, I guess in a way it could be kind of country because these 254 00:15:56,685 --> 00:16:01,365 people did come from the country they came from in the wilds of Kentucky, but. 255 00:16:01,935 --> 00:16:04,005 For a city, for a city girl. 256 00:16:04,005 --> 00:16:09,825 For me, it was like going to a kind of how to take care of a home charm school. 257 00:16:09,825 --> 00:16:12,945 I mean, it was really because she knew all of that. 258 00:16:12,945 --> 00:16:14,775 I mean, she taught me about Crystal. 259 00:16:14,775 --> 00:16:17,025 I write about this in the book in China, and. 260 00:16:17,685 --> 00:16:20,835 Silver and flowers and a beautiful yard and all this. 261 00:16:20,835 --> 00:16:24,015 And if you came to this house that I live in right now, it's a direct 262 00:16:24,015 --> 00:16:25,875 reflection of the things she taught me. 263 00:16:25,965 --> 00:16:26,565 Everything. 264 00:16:26,835 --> 00:16:27,945 Yeah, understand. 265 00:16:28,215 --> 00:16:30,155 If you're just joining us, I'm Johnny O. 266 00:16:30,155 --> 00:16:35,265 Hanson Jr. And you're listening to In Black America from KUT Radio, and we speak 267 00:16:35,265 --> 00:16:40,185 with Denise Nichols, actress, activist, writer, author of Finding Home a memoir. 268 00:16:41,025 --> 00:16:44,985 Denise talks about joining the Negro Ensemble Company in 269 00:16:44,985 --> 00:16:47,415 1966, or was it prior to that? 270 00:16:47,805 --> 00:16:49,005 It was 66. 271 00:16:49,095 --> 00:16:49,515 Yeah. 272 00:16:49,515 --> 00:16:49,545 Okay. 273 00:16:49,995 --> 00:16:54,165 Uh, 67, the Negro Ensemble Company, which was founded by Robert Hooks, 274 00:16:54,165 --> 00:16:59,115 Douglas Turner Ward in, um, I forgot the financial guy's name. 275 00:16:59,115 --> 00:17:02,685 Anyway, when I got up to New York from the Free Southern Theater. 276 00:17:03,570 --> 00:17:07,500 Uh, had finished my work there and I was, uh, hired to do a play 277 00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:11,940 with, uh, Vivica Lindfors and her husband, George Tabori in New York. 278 00:17:11,940 --> 00:17:15,180 So I went to New York, that's what took me to New York, and I rehearsed 279 00:17:15,180 --> 00:17:19,170 with them, went on the road with them, uh, came back into New York. 280 00:17:19,935 --> 00:17:24,915 City and, uh, started looking for, you know, like all actors do, started 281 00:17:24,915 --> 00:17:28,365 looking for work, doing auditions, going from one theater to the next. 282 00:17:29,085 --> 00:17:32,115 You know, you had to, you have to be really young to do that. 283 00:17:32,325 --> 00:17:36,645 So I did that and I did some work right after that. 284 00:17:36,645 --> 00:17:38,235 Uh, biblical in force piece. 285 00:17:38,625 --> 00:17:42,375 And then I met Robert Hooks and Douglas Turner Ward and Gerald Cron was the 286 00:17:42,375 --> 00:17:44,025 financial guy, just popped into my head. 287 00:17:44,295 --> 00:17:44,895 So. 288 00:17:45,330 --> 00:17:48,150 They saw me in the plays that I did in New York. 289 00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:53,010 So when the Negro Ensemble company was forming, uh, I was, I went to 290 00:17:53,010 --> 00:17:57,270 see about doing an audition and I was, had been unemployed for a bit, 291 00:17:57,270 --> 00:18:02,190 so I got a job in the office first doing office work for the theater. 292 00:18:02,730 --> 00:18:08,280 And then my audition was Douglas Turner Ward and Robert Hooks said that the work 293 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,850 that I had done with the Free Southern Theater, some of which had been televised 294 00:18:11,850 --> 00:18:19,020 in New York, and with the Open Theater and Judson Poets Theater and the thing with 295 00:18:19,020 --> 00:18:24,000 the biblical infos, they accepted me into the com company on the basis of work done. 296 00:18:24,750 --> 00:18:28,649 So that was the beginning of really my professional career. 297 00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:32,820 So I was there for the training program and there for the first 298 00:18:32,820 --> 00:18:35,040 season, which was incredible. 299 00:18:35,399 --> 00:18:40,215 And we opened with a play, the Song of the Luan Bogey by Peter 300 00:18:40,215 --> 00:18:44,909 Weiss, which was a song, a play about the Portuguese in Africa. 301 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:45,090 So. 302 00:18:46,290 --> 00:18:47,520 It was right up my alley. 303 00:18:47,665 --> 00:18:49,680 I was, I was in negro heaven. 304 00:18:49,950 --> 00:18:54,840 And so then, uh, I did that first season and, and that's when a, BCE 305 00:18:54,840 --> 00:19:00,240 had sent, um, agents to the theater to see the, the new, the big hot 306 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,100 theater, the Negro Summer company. 307 00:19:02,340 --> 00:19:07,110 And they reached out to me to come in for a reading for a new series. 308 00:19:07,530 --> 00:19:10,530 I didn't know anything about it, so I went in, I got the 309 00:19:10,530 --> 00:19:12,000 reading, and I did the reading. 310 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,440 I came back to work at the theater. 311 00:19:13,935 --> 00:19:18,135 And then soon after that they said they wanted me to do a callback. 312 00:19:18,525 --> 00:19:21,435 I went and did a callback in New York, and then they said, we wanna fly you 313 00:19:21,435 --> 00:19:23,115 to California to do a screen test. 314 00:19:23,115 --> 00:19:28,065 So I, they, I hadn't even been in California, so I went to California 315 00:19:28,485 --> 00:19:31,485 and they, you know, they take very good care of you, at least they used to. 316 00:19:31,875 --> 00:19:36,615 And I did a screen test for room 2 22, came back to New York as I 317 00:19:36,615 --> 00:19:40,845 waited for, for the answer on the screen test, they flew me back to 318 00:19:40,845 --> 00:19:43,365 Los Angeles for a personality test. 319 00:19:44,175 --> 00:19:47,355 Which is where they just stand you in front of a camera and turn 320 00:19:47,355 --> 00:19:50,235 the camera on and ask you a couple of questions, and you just talk 321 00:19:50,235 --> 00:19:51,735 your head off like I'm doing now. 322 00:19:53,025 --> 00:19:53,805 That worked. 323 00:19:53,865 --> 00:19:58,455 So soon after that, they told me I had the role on room 2 22 and I, it was 324 00:19:58,455 --> 00:20:00,375 time for me to move to Los Angeles. 325 00:20:00,375 --> 00:20:02,445 So that's, that's how that played out. 326 00:20:02,865 --> 00:20:06,735 Being one of the few people of color on television at that time. 327 00:20:06,735 --> 00:20:08,535 Talk to us about that experience. 328 00:20:09,225 --> 00:20:15,960 Well, you know, I. Because I had been in the civil rights movement and because 329 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:20,280 I still paid attention to all of the, the stuff going on in Mississippi and 330 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,399 in Alabama and, and deep south places. 331 00:20:23,399 --> 00:20:27,179 And I stayed tuned in, tuned into the movement even after I went on, 332 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,639 uh, to be a professional actor. 333 00:20:30,330 --> 00:20:32,879 So I think. 334 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:39,660 I think what I wanted to do, what I wanted to do was room 2 22 while it's filming, 335 00:20:40,260 --> 00:20:46,530 and as soon as the the filming season is over, I wanted to go back to New York and 336 00:20:46,530 --> 00:20:48,510 be a member of the Negro Ensemble Company. 337 00:20:48,510 --> 00:20:51,900 That was my dream situation. 338 00:20:52,845 --> 00:20:58,335 Uh, so after the first season, I went back to New York, uh, and, you know, met 339 00:20:58,335 --> 00:21:02,685 with the, the people who run the theater, Douglas Turner Award and Robert Hooks, and 340 00:21:02,685 --> 00:21:04,755 they said, no, they needed a full company. 341 00:21:04,755 --> 00:21:07,425 They couldn't have people coming in and going out, blah, blah, blah. 342 00:21:07,905 --> 00:21:08,835 So I said, okay. 343 00:21:08,835 --> 00:21:13,695 So I just, you know, came back to LA and decided to focus on film and television, 344 00:21:14,295 --> 00:21:16,485 uh, to see what I could make happen. 345 00:21:16,635 --> 00:21:20,505 And that's the be, that's the first, that's the first chunk. 346 00:21:20,780 --> 00:21:23,750 Of my career in Los Angeles, in Hollywood. 347 00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:25,850 That right there, what I just described. 348 00:21:26,810 --> 00:21:33,350 What first convinced you that acting is what you really wanted to do? 349 00:21:34,095 --> 00:21:35,090 What, what changed? 350 00:21:35,210 --> 00:21:35,659 What, what? 351 00:21:35,659 --> 00:21:37,070 What changed your focus? 352 00:21:38,085 --> 00:21:44,475 I, you know, I don't, I don't know that I ever felt that way about acting. 353 00:21:44,985 --> 00:21:46,425 I enjoyed it. 354 00:21:47,145 --> 00:21:51,225 Um, I certainly enjoyed making money and you get a lot, you know, 355 00:21:51,225 --> 00:21:54,345 if you're on a series like that, you get a whole lot of attention. 356 00:21:54,345 --> 00:21:59,625 You know, pr tons of press attention and just, you get a lot of attention, period. 357 00:21:59,625 --> 00:22:02,565 Just people walking down the street, they see you, oh, aren't you on tv? 358 00:22:02,865 --> 00:22:04,305 And that happens a lot. 359 00:22:04,845 --> 00:22:06,645 So that. 360 00:22:07,125 --> 00:22:10,095 That was, you know, that's a part of the deal when you do that. 361 00:22:10,395 --> 00:22:15,555 But inside I always wanted something else and it had to do with writing. 362 00:22:16,185 --> 00:22:20,295 I was a good English student at University of Michigan in high school, 363 00:22:20,505 --> 00:22:24,015 and when I got to Ann Arbor, I exempted out of the first year of English 364 00:22:24,225 --> 00:22:27,105 that they require freshmen to take. 365 00:22:27,585 --> 00:22:30,135 And even though I wasn't thinking. 366 00:22:31,065 --> 00:22:33,405 No, I was thinking about being a writer. 367 00:22:33,405 --> 00:22:35,625 I did not know how to be a writer. 368 00:22:35,775 --> 00:22:38,115 I didn't even know how to get that door open. 369 00:22:38,115 --> 00:22:42,195 It was like this great fantasy I carried around in my head that I was gonna, I 370 00:22:42,195 --> 00:22:46,425 was gonna write a great book or I was gonna, I was gonna be a writer because 371 00:22:46,425 --> 00:22:49,065 I read so much and I so loved fiction. 372 00:22:49,425 --> 00:22:53,535 Um, and I took all the English classes, I took classes that I 373 00:22:53,535 --> 00:22:55,365 wanted to take, and I discovered. 374 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,750 Different poets and different, uh, literary figures from England 375 00:22:59,750 --> 00:23:01,220 and France and everywhere. 376 00:23:01,220 --> 00:23:02,300 And I thought, oh my God. 377 00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:07,310 And I was, as I said earlier, I was a reader and I just loved books and I loved 378 00:23:07,310 --> 00:23:12,050 words, and I loved that whole, you know, of course what I had in my head was an 379 00:23:12,050 --> 00:23:15,950 idealized version of it, you know, not knowing how hard the work was until 380 00:23:15,950 --> 00:23:22,460 later, but that's what I really always wanted to do, is what I'm doing now. 381 00:23:23,070 --> 00:23:23,580 Right. 382 00:23:24,810 --> 00:23:28,290 I think that one of the first things you had published was in Essence 383 00:23:28,890 --> 00:23:29,550 Yes. 384 00:23:29,565 --> 00:23:29,915 Uhhuh. 385 00:23:31,230 --> 00:23:31,290 Yeah. 386 00:23:31,290 --> 00:23:31,755 And what was that? 387 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,490 That was, uh, a little short piece. 388 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:42,660 My sister Michelle, who's the one who was murdered in New York and two other 389 00:23:42,660 --> 00:23:46,470 close, close, close family, friends, older women from Detroit came to California 390 00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:49,110 to visit me, and we took a trip. 391 00:23:49,679 --> 00:23:53,250 I bought a new Mercedes and the four lady, the three of them got 392 00:23:53,250 --> 00:23:56,970 in my car and oh, we went up to San Francisco on the coast route, which 393 00:23:56,970 --> 00:23:58,409 is a beautiful, beautiful trip. 394 00:23:58,679 --> 00:24:03,030 And I wanted to show people them, 'cause they were people that I loved dearly. 395 00:24:03,179 --> 00:24:06,600 I wanted to show them the beauty of California, and particularly the 396 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,530 beauty of the coast, ride by the ocean all the way up to San Francisco. 397 00:24:10,889 --> 00:24:12,120 So that's what we did. 398 00:24:12,270 --> 00:24:13,409 And we had an adventure. 399 00:24:13,740 --> 00:24:17,040 Some of the, I mean, most everything was beautiful, but we had some. 400 00:24:17,305 --> 00:24:19,105 Stressful things as well. 401 00:24:19,435 --> 00:24:23,845 So when I got back and everybody went off, went home, I started 402 00:24:24,115 --> 00:24:27,025 writing a piece about the trip and. 403 00:24:28,575 --> 00:24:33,075 So I kind of, I didn't, this was my first attempt at writing anything. 404 00:24:33,075 --> 00:24:38,085 And I had a friend at Essence and I sent the piece to my, my friends there, 405 00:24:38,415 --> 00:24:39,765 and they said, we can publish it. 406 00:24:39,765 --> 00:24:40,995 And I was like, you are kidding. 407 00:24:41,025 --> 00:24:41,205 You know? 408 00:24:41,205 --> 00:24:42,435 I didn't even believe it. 409 00:24:42,705 --> 00:24:43,815 And so they did. 410 00:24:43,815 --> 00:24:47,445 And it's a little, I, I read it now 'cause I, I still have a copy of it and it's a 411 00:24:47,445 --> 00:24:52,215 little rough around the edges, but I did a rewrite on it and it's published again. 412 00:24:52,610 --> 00:24:56,150 And the volume, a gathering of voices, which comes out of the 413 00:24:56,300 --> 00:24:59,660 writing workshop that I ran here in my house for a few years. 414 00:24:59,930 --> 00:25:04,670 So we produced a volume of short pieces by all the members of the workshop 415 00:25:04,820 --> 00:25:08,690 and my p, one of my pieces is that piece about the trip up the coast. 416 00:25:09,410 --> 00:25:13,310 What was some of the things that you learned and gathered from that workshop? 417 00:25:13,635 --> 00:25:19,575 Well, I, I had taken a class with, uh, a workshop with a, a 418 00:25:19,575 --> 00:25:21,705 writer whose name is Janet Fitch. 419 00:25:21,975 --> 00:25:27,675 She wrote a book called White Olender, which was a huge, huge, huge hit. 420 00:25:28,485 --> 00:25:34,035 And I, I had a, a friend who was in her workshop, and this 421 00:25:34,035 --> 00:25:37,665 is all after, in the heat of the night, was, uh, was, uh, stopped. 422 00:25:37,980 --> 00:25:41,370 So I had started writing on in the Heat of the Night 'cause Carol 423 00:25:41,370 --> 00:25:42,780 O'Connor gave me a shot to write. 424 00:25:42,780 --> 00:25:47,310 So I did six episodes and then I thought by the, at the end of that I said, okay, 425 00:25:47,310 --> 00:25:50,040 now I'm in the lane that I wanna be in. 426 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,980 I'm writing and I'm getting paid to write. 427 00:25:53,370 --> 00:25:56,879 So then my friend told friend told me about Janet Fitch's workshop. 428 00:25:56,879 --> 00:26:01,500 So I went and, and auditioned by sending her something that I was working on 429 00:26:01,590 --> 00:26:03,480 and she accepted me in the workshop. 430 00:26:03,870 --> 00:26:08,670 So Freshwater Road comes out of that workshop, every single word. 431 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:15,659 So it was, um, about a three and a half year writing, uh, period to get 432 00:26:15,659 --> 00:26:20,310 that book done, to get it written, and with a lot of good help from people 433 00:26:20,310 --> 00:26:21,810 in the workshop because they were. 434 00:26:22,395 --> 00:26:23,565 The, it was critical. 435 00:26:23,565 --> 00:26:27,825 You had to present your work and you had to accept the criticism, discuss 436 00:26:27,825 --> 00:26:30,045 it, and then go back and do rewrites. 437 00:26:30,225 --> 00:26:34,035 So when I started the workshop here, it was based on what I had 438 00:26:34,305 --> 00:26:36,285 experienced in that workshop. 439 00:26:36,435 --> 00:26:39,885 So I gathered five other people who were interested in writing all, all 440 00:26:39,885 --> 00:26:44,655 of people, people I knew before and many, um, they were all working on one. 441 00:26:45,375 --> 00:26:49,485 One project or another, uh, as writer is fledgling, 442 00:26:49,815 --> 00:26:52,005 fledgling, or beginning writers. 443 00:26:52,485 --> 00:27:00,435 So at the workshop I try to emulate what Janet Fitch had done in that workshop, 444 00:27:00,435 --> 00:27:02,625 which was so incredibly successful. 445 00:27:03,465 --> 00:27:08,145 So I brought her teachings to this group of people, and it has, 446 00:27:08,145 --> 00:27:10,365 it has basic, very basic things. 447 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:16,379 One of the things that she used to teach, uh, and hammer into our bony 448 00:27:16,379 --> 00:27:19,020 heads was writing the the senses. 449 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,460 You are a human being and you have five senses, and all those senses have to 450 00:27:23,460 --> 00:27:28,740 be at play when you write a character because they are human beings, and 451 00:27:28,740 --> 00:27:34,439 that helps the reader feel and get to know the character that you're writing. 452 00:27:34,740 --> 00:27:38,460 Denise Nicholas, actress, activist, writer, and author 453 00:27:38,460 --> 00:27:40,290 of Finding Home a memoir. 454 00:27:40,935 --> 00:27:44,655 If you have questions, comments, or suggestions as to future in black America, 455 00:27:44,655 --> 00:27:49,485 ros, email us at In Black america@kut.org. 456 00:27:49,965 --> 00:27:52,965 Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. 457 00:27:53,565 --> 00:27:58,455 Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook nx. 458 00:27:58,860 --> 00:28:02,040 You can have previous programs online@kut.org. 459 00:28:03,090 --> 00:28:06,330 Also, you can listen to a special collection of In Black America 460 00:28:06,330 --> 00:28:12,419 programs at American Archive of Public Broadcasting as American archives.org. 461 00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:16,560 The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessary 462 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,399 those of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. 463 00:28:20,970 --> 00:28:25,230 Until we have the opportunity again for a technical producer, David Alvarez. 464 00:28:25,530 --> 00:28:29,100 I'm Johnelle Hansen, Jr. Thank you for joining us today. 465 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,470 Please join us again next week. 466 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,430 Cd copies of this program are available and may be purchased 467 00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:37,530 by writing in Black America. 468 00:28:37,530 --> 00:28:45,330 CDs, KUT Radio 300 West Dean Keaton Boulevard, Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2. 469 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,520 That's in Black America. 470 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,855 CDs, KUT Radio 300 West Dean Keaton Boulevard. 471 00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:55,200 Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2. 472 00:28:57,090 --> 00:28:59,585 This has been a production of KUT radio. 473 00:29:15,991 --> 00:29:20,311 From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio. 474 00:29:20,701 --> 00:29:22,831 This is in Black America. 475 00:29:23,611 --> 00:29:24,601 I really think it depends on how. 476 00:29:25,441 --> 00:29:28,051 How you, how you see yourself in the world. 477 00:29:28,051 --> 00:29:31,231 I mean, most many women at that time, not so much now. 478 00:29:31,321 --> 00:29:31,411 Mm-hmm. 479 00:29:31,651 --> 00:29:36,031 But at that time, people were looking for, uh, a different kind of life. 480 00:29:36,031 --> 00:29:41,221 I was looking or thinking, I don't know if I was consciously doing it, but I was 481 00:29:41,221 --> 00:29:46,106 thinking of the world, not just of the, my little place in one place at a time. 482 00:29:46,981 --> 00:29:50,971 I was looking to develop not only more intelligence, but more compa, 483 00:29:51,031 --> 00:29:54,871 more compassion for the rest of the world and other people besides myself. 484 00:29:55,321 --> 00:30:00,481 And so meeting people who were in the civil rights movement, which provoked my 485 00:30:00,481 --> 00:30:04,426 going south, talking to them and listening to them and the passion and, and. 486 00:30:04,741 --> 00:30:09,151 The, the sense of duty to help other people. 487 00:30:09,151 --> 00:30:12,241 All of those things became a part of the mix in my head. 488 00:30:12,571 --> 00:30:17,011 Denise Nicholas, actor, activist, writer, and author of Finding Home, 489 00:30:17,011 --> 00:30:19,321 a memoir published by Bolden Books. 490 00:30:20,711 --> 00:30:24,281 Nicholas is the best known for portrayals of high school guiding 491 00:30:24,281 --> 00:30:32,141 counselor Liz McIntyre on room 2 22 on A BC TV from 1969 to 1974, and 492 00:30:32,141 --> 00:30:38,321 Harriet DeLong on the TV version of In the Heat of the Night on NBC and CVS. 493 00:30:38,976 --> 00:30:42,726 In a memoir of Finding home, she explored her six decade journey 494 00:30:43,206 --> 00:30:44,886 through TV and film stardom. 495 00:30:45,276 --> 00:30:49,596 Our experiences in Hollywood have shaped her the real stories behind her 496 00:30:49,596 --> 00:30:54,456 marriage to build with us her other two marriages and subsequent romantic life, 497 00:30:54,846 --> 00:30:58,926 and how she reinvented her creative life to become a celebrated novel. 498 00:30:59,641 --> 00:31:02,911 Nicholas began the career as a founding member of the Free Southern 499 00:31:02,911 --> 00:31:06,811 Theater, joined Mississippi and Louisiana during the most violent 500 00:31:06,811 --> 00:31:08,821 days of the Civil Rights Movement. 501 00:31:09,781 --> 00:31:14,581 I am Johnny O. Hanson Jr. And welcome to another edition of In Black America 502 00:31:15,121 --> 00:31:20,191 on this week's program, finding Home with Denise Nicholas in Black America. 503 00:31:20,341 --> 00:31:24,511 I had a friend who was in her workshop, and this is all after, in the Heat of 504 00:31:24,511 --> 00:31:26,456 the night, was, uh, was, uh, stopped. 505 00:31:27,106 --> 00:31:30,286 So I had started writing on In the Heat of the Night 'cause Carol 506 00:31:30,286 --> 00:31:31,696 O'Connor gave me a shot to write. 507 00:31:31,696 --> 00:31:36,256 So I did six episodes and then I thought by the, at the end of that I said, okay, 508 00:31:36,256 --> 00:31:38,986 now I'm in the lane that I wanna be in. 509 00:31:39,226 --> 00:31:41,386 I'm writing and I'm getting paid to write. 510 00:31:41,446 --> 00:31:44,986 So then my friend told friend told me about Janet Fit's workshop. 511 00:31:44,986 --> 00:31:49,576 So I went and, and audition by sending her something that I was working on 512 00:31:49,756 --> 00:31:51,526 and she accepted me in the workshop. 513 00:31:51,976 --> 00:31:55,306 So Freshwater Road comes out of that workshop every. 514 00:31:55,596 --> 00:31:56,766 Single word. 515 00:31:56,856 --> 00:32:02,406 So it was, um, about a three and a half year writing period to get that book 516 00:32:02,406 --> 00:32:07,416 done, to get it written, and with a lot of good help from people in the workshop, 517 00:32:07,416 --> 00:32:09,756 because they were, it was critical. 518 00:32:09,756 --> 00:32:14,016 You had to present your work and you had to accept the criticism, discuss 519 00:32:14,016 --> 00:32:16,236 it, and then go back and do rewrites 520 00:32:16,506 --> 00:32:19,686 growing up, middle class in 1950, Detroit. 521 00:32:19,981 --> 00:32:24,121 Nicholas experienced a vibrant culture and harsh reality of a segregated 522 00:32:24,121 --> 00:32:27,931 city, which profoundly influenced her perspective on identity. 523 00:32:28,561 --> 00:32:32,911 Nicholas entered the University of Michigan as a pre-law student, but dropped 524 00:32:32,911 --> 00:32:36,781 outta the university to tour the Deep South with the free Southern Theater 525 00:32:37,111 --> 00:32:39,151 at the height of civil rights movement. 526 00:32:39,831 --> 00:32:43,611 A few years later, she would gain national fame on the groundbreaking A 527 00:32:43,611 --> 00:32:47,511 BC TV comedy drama series, room 2 22. 528 00:32:47,901 --> 00:32:51,921 In her book, finding Home Nickley explores the ways of experiences Hollywood 529 00:32:51,921 --> 00:32:54,201 shaped her understanding of success. 530 00:32:54,201 --> 00:32:56,061 Intimacy and commitment. 531 00:32:56,571 --> 00:33:00,831 She candidly discusses the challenges she face as a trailblazing actress 532 00:33:00,831 --> 00:33:04,731 of color, shedding light on the systematic barriers and biases 533 00:33:04,731 --> 00:33:06,381 within the entertainment industry. 534 00:33:06,771 --> 00:33:11,601 Nicholas presented emotionally charged and richly complex picture of the realities 535 00:33:11,601 --> 00:33:16,101 of personal and professional success as an African American woman in America. 536 00:33:16,421 --> 00:33:21,251 Over the past 50 years, you begin your book by talking about your mom. 537 00:33:21,251 --> 00:33:22,211 Why start there? 538 00:33:22,541 --> 00:33:30,041 I think because like with, with most women, the mother character has the 539 00:33:30,041 --> 00:33:36,611 most profound influence on your life because moms are the ones who, who 540 00:33:37,001 --> 00:33:43,391 prepare you for growing up more, much more so, and, and I guess dads or uncles. 541 00:33:44,041 --> 00:33:46,441 Have some of the same function with men. 542 00:33:46,951 --> 00:33:47,341 Yeah. 543 00:33:47,521 --> 00:33:51,511 Now, when you began, this is like your second book. 544 00:33:51,931 --> 00:33:52,351 Yes. 545 00:33:52,351 --> 00:33:55,741 Talk to us about that first book that you actually had published. 546 00:33:55,741 --> 00:33:56,851 Freshwater Road. 547 00:33:57,151 --> 00:34:02,131 Well, that book is, I think Freshwater Road is my favorite. 548 00:34:02,506 --> 00:34:04,696 Piece of writing that I've done so far. 549 00:34:04,696 --> 00:34:11,746 I love this memoir, but Freshwater Road came out of a love I had for the Civil 550 00:34:11,746 --> 00:34:15,346 rights movement and the things that happened in the South during those years. 551 00:34:15,826 --> 00:34:19,306 And I was there for a part of that time with the free Southern Theater. 552 00:34:19,801 --> 00:34:24,181 So I tour toured around Mississippi and Louisiana and really that was 553 00:34:24,181 --> 00:34:25,921 my first time in the deep South. 554 00:34:26,371 --> 00:34:32,581 So I learned a lot and I sat on it for years and years as 555 00:34:32,581 --> 00:34:34,321 it percolated inside of me. 556 00:34:34,321 --> 00:34:37,981 And I read and studied about the history of the South and different things. 557 00:34:37,981 --> 00:34:42,001 So when I got around to riding Freshwater Road, I was. 558 00:34:43,396 --> 00:34:47,086 So deeply passionate about it, uh, is almost like I couldn't 559 00:34:47,086 --> 00:34:48,676 breathe until I got it done. 560 00:34:49,276 --> 00:34:53,386 And because I carried it from the time I was in Mississippi in the sixties 561 00:34:53,596 --> 00:34:55,876 until I started writing Freshwater Road. 562 00:34:55,876 --> 00:35:01,546 I carried everything from that period in my head, in my memory, and in my heart 563 00:35:01,576 --> 00:35:06,721 because I knew, I, I knew that someday I would write something about that period. 564 00:35:07,456 --> 00:35:10,396 So I think it's, uh, I love finding home. 565 00:35:10,396 --> 00:35:14,446 It's a more difficult, in, in a sense for me, a more difficult task 566 00:35:14,926 --> 00:35:17,776 to write directly about myself. 567 00:35:18,256 --> 00:35:23,746 And so, you know, I was, uh, I was, it was a, a much more difficult write for me. 568 00:35:24,151 --> 00:35:29,641 My publisher, Doug Zebo, a agate had to continually push me forward 569 00:35:29,821 --> 00:35:32,671 'cause I was ready to throw in the towel about 50 times. 570 00:35:33,301 --> 00:35:38,071 And then, you know, with Freshwater Road, nobody had to do anything. 571 00:35:38,071 --> 00:35:41,581 'cause I was so in love with the project itself. 572 00:35:41,881 --> 00:35:45,931 I say you born in Detroit, but you all eventually moved to to Marlin, 573 00:35:45,931 --> 00:35:47,821 Michigan, which is outside Detroit. 574 00:35:48,211 --> 00:35:53,156 Talk to us about living in Detroit prior to you all moving to Marlin. 575 00:35:54,241 --> 00:35:59,401 Well, I was pretty young, you know, um, 'cause I, when we moved out there, 576 00:36:00,541 --> 00:36:04,501 I was put ahead a, a full grade and I ended up in the ninth grade when I 577 00:36:04,501 --> 00:36:05,911 should have been in the eighth grade. 578 00:36:06,511 --> 00:36:11,161 So back in Detroit at that time, you know, the city was changing 579 00:36:11,161 --> 00:36:14,131 and it was evident that the city was changing, not for the better. 580 00:36:14,521 --> 00:36:20,521 And schools were going down because of white flight and budgets and so forth. 581 00:36:20,521 --> 00:36:20,851 And so. 582 00:36:21,841 --> 00:36:28,531 Uh, my mother and my stepfather thought at best that I go to a different high 583 00:36:28,531 --> 00:36:31,411 school, go to high school where he was, you know, out in the town where 584 00:36:31,411 --> 00:36:35,191 they were, were living because he worked out at the federal prison there. 585 00:36:35,701 --> 00:36:40,801 So that was, for me, it was difficult because I didn't wanna leave the city. 586 00:36:40,801 --> 00:36:45,541 I, I see myself as a city girl, and the little town that we 587 00:36:45,541 --> 00:36:47,341 were moving to was very small. 588 00:36:47,836 --> 00:36:52,366 And it was, uh, we were the only black family in the town at that time. 589 00:36:52,786 --> 00:36:56,746 So that was also difficult because as you know, and I know and everybody knows 590 00:36:56,746 --> 00:36:58,966 Detroit has an abundance of black people. 591 00:36:59,056 --> 00:37:02,176 So, uh, that's what I was accustomed to. 592 00:37:02,836 --> 00:37:03,431 So I went. 593 00:37:04,266 --> 00:37:09,666 You know, I kind of fought a little bit with my mom 'cause I wanted to 594 00:37:09,666 --> 00:37:11,766 stay in Detroit with other relatives. 595 00:37:11,766 --> 00:37:14,976 I didn't wanna leave the city, but eventually I went on out to Milan 596 00:37:14,976 --> 00:37:16,626 and finished high school out there. 597 00:37:17,286 --> 00:37:19,986 Uh, but it was difficult for me because of culture. 598 00:37:19,986 --> 00:37:21,936 Culture, uh, differences. 599 00:37:22,026 --> 00:37:23,016 Uh, absolutely. 600 00:37:23,466 --> 00:37:26,256 Now there was a learning experience once you were. 601 00:37:26,881 --> 00:37:29,341 Admitted and attended the University of Michigan. 602 00:37:29,341 --> 00:37:34,741 Talk to us about that experience prior to you going to the Free Southern Theater 603 00:37:34,746 --> 00:37:35,076 Theater. 604 00:37:35,581 --> 00:37:40,141 Well, I, I went to, I was a freshman at University of Michigan when I was 17, 605 00:37:41,131 --> 00:37:45,841 and which is kind of, you know, I was a little bit young, but, and, and I think 606 00:37:45,841 --> 00:37:51,751 that when looking back on it, my youth translates to immaturity of course. 607 00:37:51,811 --> 00:37:54,596 So my, my grades were good. 608 00:37:55,801 --> 00:37:59,071 My scholarship was good, but. 609 00:38:00,151 --> 00:38:06,151 I was still a kid and University of Michigan, uh, as I'm sure you know, is 610 00:38:06,151 --> 00:38:11,311 a very sophisticated, very large campus with, uh, it was very swift moving. 611 00:38:11,311 --> 00:38:13,291 It felt more like a little New York. 612 00:38:13,471 --> 00:38:18,601 So, you know, so it was, what I say in the book is Ann Arbor picked 613 00:38:18,601 --> 00:38:22,621 me up on my bootstraps and turned me every which way but loose. 614 00:38:22,831 --> 00:38:26,671 So it was great and it was challenging. 615 00:38:27,136 --> 00:38:31,096 And I refer to it constantly in my life because in a sense I loved it 616 00:38:31,096 --> 00:38:35,446 there, but once I went south, I wasn't going back to school at that time. 617 00:38:35,446 --> 00:38:38,866 I eventually did go back to school here and graduated from 618 00:38:38,866 --> 00:38:40,546 University of Southern California. 619 00:38:41,026 --> 00:38:46,186 So, but Ann Arbor is still, is like in my heart and in my mind that is, 620 00:38:46,216 --> 00:38:48,256 it's a, it's beautiful memories. 621 00:38:48,256 --> 00:38:54,286 It's some kind of, uh, I kind of idyllic, you know, so, but I loved 622 00:38:54,286 --> 00:38:55,726 it and I absolutely loved it. 623 00:38:56,266 --> 00:39:00,376 Now you talk about your first roommate when you were at the University of 624 00:39:00,376 --> 00:39:02,626 Michigan, and that didn't last too long. 625 00:39:03,166 --> 00:39:07,216 But also during that period, I guess you found your blackness. 626 00:39:07,906 --> 00:39:09,316 I'm not sure what that means. 627 00:39:09,316 --> 00:39:10,126 What does that mean? 628 00:39:10,246 --> 00:39:15,526 Well, you became more culturally and civic aware of what was going on around, around 629 00:39:15,526 --> 00:39:17,146 you and what was happening in the world. 630 00:39:17,926 --> 00:39:21,016 Well, yes, because the civil rights movement came to campus. 631 00:39:21,016 --> 00:39:21,106 Mm-hmm. 632 00:39:21,346 --> 00:39:21,556 Yes. 633 00:39:22,456 --> 00:39:26,446 You know, and remember around that time too, and just a little bit later, the 634 00:39:26,446 --> 00:39:30,316 Vietnam War right, was, um, heating up. 635 00:39:30,376 --> 00:39:34,396 So there were plenty of things going on on campus in regard to 636 00:39:34,396 --> 00:39:39,826 both those occurrences or issues, civil rights and the Vietnam War. 637 00:39:39,826 --> 00:39:43,936 There was a lot of activity there, and I got to, um. 638 00:39:44,476 --> 00:39:49,576 One of my roommates, Martha Prescott, who still, who's now moved back to Michigan, 639 00:39:50,026 --> 00:39:53,386 was the person who really introduced me to the Civil Rights movement. 640 00:39:53,386 --> 00:39:59,626 She was very active and very, very smart, and I think because of influence, her 641 00:39:59,626 --> 00:40:04,756 influence and other things going on At the time when I met Gil Moses and he was. 642 00:40:05,416 --> 00:40:08,716 Setting up this theater to be a part of the Civil Rights movement. 643 00:40:08,716 --> 00:40:12,766 I thought that was my entree into the Civil Rights Movement. 644 00:40:13,216 --> 00:40:18,136 Now, once you attended the University of Michigan, but also you went off 645 00:40:18,136 --> 00:40:22,486 to New York, why was that a learning experience, uh, for you to help 646 00:40:22,486 --> 00:40:24,196 shape the lady that you are today? 647 00:40:25,606 --> 00:40:30,196 Well, I, I think, I really think it depends on how. 648 00:40:30,946 --> 00:40:33,586 How you, how you see yourself in the world. 649 00:40:33,586 --> 00:40:36,796 I mean, most many women at that time, not so much now. 650 00:40:36,856 --> 00:40:36,946 Mm-hmm. 651 00:40:37,186 --> 00:40:41,776 But at that time, people were looking for, uh, a different kind of life. 652 00:40:41,776 --> 00:40:43,666 I was looking. 653 00:40:45,136 --> 00:40:48,856 Or thinking, I don't know if I was consciously doing it, but I was thinking 654 00:40:49,216 --> 00:40:53,626 of the world, not just of the my little place, in one place at a time. 655 00:40:53,986 --> 00:40:58,126 I was looking to develop not only more intelligence, but more compa, 656 00:40:58,156 --> 00:41:02,086 more compassion for the rest of the world and other people besides myself. 657 00:41:02,446 --> 00:41:02,716 And so. 658 00:41:03,871 --> 00:41:07,591 Meeting people who were in the civil rights movement, which provoked my 659 00:41:07,591 --> 00:41:12,841 going south, talking to them, listening to them, and the passion and the, the, 660 00:41:12,931 --> 00:41:16,321 the sense of duty to help other people. 661 00:41:16,321 --> 00:41:22,261 All of those things became a part of the mix in my head that led me to 662 00:41:22,261 --> 00:41:26,941 the south, but also fed me as a woman who wanted to, to have a place in 663 00:41:26,941 --> 00:41:29,701 the world that wasn't just, you know. 664 00:41:30,946 --> 00:41:34,186 I don't wanna say just because it's very important, housewife and mother. 665 00:41:34,486 --> 00:41:36,406 I never really wanted to have children. 666 00:41:36,406 --> 00:41:41,266 I wanted to work and that's basically the way my life is, has played out. 667 00:41:41,266 --> 00:41:46,666 So I'm a worker bee, I always was, and I guess I will be, uh, until the end. 668 00:41:46,666 --> 00:41:49,276 It's my, it's my comfort zone. 669 00:41:49,636 --> 00:41:50,506 Absolutely. 670 00:41:50,926 --> 00:41:51,346 So 671 00:41:51,886 --> 00:41:57,016 is it true that prior to you becoming an actress and, and author and writer, 672 00:41:57,016 --> 00:41:58,426 you wanted to become an attorney? 673 00:41:59,776 --> 00:42:01,816 Uh, I flirted with that for a while. 674 00:42:02,116 --> 00:42:02,656 Yeah. 675 00:42:03,226 --> 00:42:05,236 Uh, I had to, oh, okay. 676 00:42:05,236 --> 00:42:07,816 So I, I thought about becoming a, an attorney. 677 00:42:07,876 --> 00:42:08,086 Mm-hmm. 678 00:42:08,776 --> 00:42:11,506 I used to also think about being in the foreign service. 679 00:42:12,556 --> 00:42:12,676 Okay. 680 00:42:12,676 --> 00:42:15,346 Being, you know, probably working for the CIA or something 681 00:42:15,346 --> 00:42:18,286 and that would've been a hoot. 682 00:42:18,586 --> 00:42:23,086 And then, um, yeah, those are the two things, and, and they 683 00:42:23,086 --> 00:42:27,496 were both things that would take me up and out into the world. 684 00:42:27,556 --> 00:42:28,366 Absolutely. 685 00:42:28,801 --> 00:42:32,821 You and your, your writing, you talk fondly about your grandparents. 686 00:42:32,911 --> 00:42:35,401 Talk to us about your grandparents. 687 00:42:36,241 --> 00:42:36,931 Oh, okay. 688 00:42:36,931 --> 00:42:38,641 My grandparents on my dad's side. 689 00:42:38,671 --> 00:42:38,851 Right. 690 00:42:38,851 --> 00:42:39,181 Yeah. 691 00:42:39,331 --> 00:42:42,751 We lived with them when we were very, my brother and I were very little. 692 00:42:43,381 --> 00:42:46,381 They were really sturdy. 693 00:42:47,161 --> 00:42:48,481 Strong people. 694 00:42:48,481 --> 00:42:54,091 They came up to Detroit from Kentucky in about, uh, 1919. 695 00:42:54,091 --> 00:42:56,881 'cause my dad was born in Detroit in 1920. 696 00:42:57,511 --> 00:43:03,361 Uh, and he had an older sister, my Aunt Flora, who was born, I guess, I 697 00:43:03,361 --> 00:43:05,251 guess they both were born in Detroit. 698 00:43:05,761 --> 00:43:11,521 So that part of my family, my dad's part of the family. 699 00:43:11,896 --> 00:43:20,386 Were, I, I, it's hard, you know, they were working class black people who had middle 700 00:43:20,386 --> 00:43:25,006 class aspirations and accomplishments. 701 00:43:25,276 --> 00:43:29,746 For example, the house that they lived in in Detroit, which is a house my 702 00:43:29,746 --> 00:43:35,446 brother and I were in repeatedly as little people, was not a big rich house. 703 00:43:35,446 --> 00:43:38,776 It was a kind of a working class people house and a working 704 00:43:38,776 --> 00:43:40,966 class people neighborhood. 705 00:43:41,566 --> 00:43:42,526 But very nice. 706 00:43:42,526 --> 00:43:45,616 Everything structured, everything cared for everything. 707 00:43:45,886 --> 00:43:47,896 You know, the backyard was like a park. 708 00:43:48,196 --> 00:43:51,946 The front yard was small, but it was constantly taken care of. 709 00:43:52,546 --> 00:43:58,576 And I think I learned from my grandmother, mostly from my grandmother, the this 710 00:43:58,576 --> 00:44:02,296 quality of taking care of property because she, I mean, this woman worked every 711 00:44:02,296 --> 00:44:06,586 day and took care of her home and yard. 712 00:44:07,276 --> 00:44:08,386 She did everything. 713 00:44:08,956 --> 00:44:12,916 So she was one of the primary role models for me. 714 00:44:12,916 --> 00:44:14,086 As I grew up. 715 00:44:14,356 --> 00:44:19,096 I knew immediately that as soon as I got, you know, to be an adult 716 00:44:19,096 --> 00:44:20,746 woman, that I was gonna own property. 717 00:44:20,746 --> 00:44:22,066 There was no question about it. 718 00:44:22,066 --> 00:44:26,656 If I had to, you know, take a job, take 40 jobs, I was gonna own property. 719 00:44:26,656 --> 00:44:30,196 That, that's because they taught me the value of that. 720 00:44:30,466 --> 00:44:33,016 She also taught me how to. 721 00:44:33,406 --> 00:44:39,616 How to, I don't know how to create a home that has beautiful things and you know, 722 00:44:39,616 --> 00:44:45,316 gorgeous things, and it's just a matter, of course, it's not anything special. 723 00:44:45,346 --> 00:44:48,526 That's the way you're supposed to live, surrounded by as much 724 00:44:48,526 --> 00:44:52,606 beauty as you can put around you with plants and trees and flowers. 725 00:44:52,696 --> 00:44:56,716 I mean, it's a very, I guess in a way it could be kind of country because these 726 00:44:56,716 --> 00:45:01,396 people did come from the country they came from in the wilds of Kentucky, but. 727 00:45:01,966 --> 00:45:04,036 For a city, for a city girl. 728 00:45:04,036 --> 00:45:09,856 For me, it was like going to a kind of how to take care of a home charm school. 729 00:45:09,856 --> 00:45:12,976 I mean, it was really because she knew all of that. 730 00:45:12,976 --> 00:45:14,806 I mean, she taught me about Crystal. 731 00:45:14,806 --> 00:45:17,056 I write about this in the book in China, and. 732 00:45:17,716 --> 00:45:20,866 Silver and flowers and a beautiful yard and all this. 733 00:45:20,866 --> 00:45:24,046 And if you came to this house that I live in right now, it's a direct 734 00:45:24,046 --> 00:45:25,906 reflection of the things she taught me. 735 00:45:25,996 --> 00:45:26,596 Everything. 736 00:45:26,866 --> 00:45:27,976 Yeah, understand. 737 00:45:28,246 --> 00:45:30,186 If you're just joining us, I'm Johnny O. 738 00:45:30,186 --> 00:45:35,296 Hanson Jr. And you're listening to In Black America from KUT Radio, and we speak 739 00:45:35,296 --> 00:45:40,216 with Denise Nichols, actress, activist, writer, author of Finding Home a memoir. 740 00:45:41,056 --> 00:45:45,016 Denise talks about joining the Negro Ensemble Company in 741 00:45:45,016 --> 00:45:47,446 1966, or was it prior to that? 742 00:45:47,836 --> 00:45:49,036 It was 66. 743 00:45:49,126 --> 00:45:49,546 Yeah. 744 00:45:49,546 --> 00:45:49,576 Okay. 745 00:45:50,026 --> 00:45:54,196 Uh, 67, the Negro Ensemble Company, which was founded by Robert Hooks, 746 00:45:54,196 --> 00:45:59,146 Douglas Turner Ward in, um, I forgot the financial guy's name. 747 00:45:59,146 --> 00:46:02,716 Anyway, when I got up to New York from the Free Southern Theater. 748 00:46:03,601 --> 00:46:07,531 Uh, had finished my work there and I was, uh, hired to do a play 749 00:46:07,531 --> 00:46:11,971 with, uh, Vivica Lindfors and her husband, George Tabori in New York. 750 00:46:11,971 --> 00:46:15,211 So I went to New York, that's what took me to New York, and I rehearsed 751 00:46:15,211 --> 00:46:19,201 with them, went on the road with them, uh, came back into New York. 752 00:46:19,966 --> 00:46:24,946 City and, uh, started looking for, you know, like all actors do, started 753 00:46:24,946 --> 00:46:28,396 looking for work, doing auditions, going from one theater to the next. 754 00:46:29,116 --> 00:46:32,146 You know, you had to, you have to be really young to do that. 755 00:46:32,356 --> 00:46:36,676 So I did that and I did some work right after that. 756 00:46:36,676 --> 00:46:38,266 Uh, biblical in force piece. 757 00:46:38,656 --> 00:46:42,406 And then I met Robert Hooks and Douglas Turner Ward and Gerald Cron was the 758 00:46:42,406 --> 00:46:44,056 financial guy, just popped into my head. 759 00:46:44,326 --> 00:46:44,926 So. 760 00:46:45,361 --> 00:46:48,181 They saw me in the plays that I did in New York. 761 00:46:48,181 --> 00:46:53,041 So when the Negro Ensemble company was forming, uh, I was, I went to 762 00:46:53,041 --> 00:46:57,301 see about doing an audition and I was, had been unemployed for a bit, 763 00:46:57,301 --> 00:47:02,221 so I got a job in the office first doing office work for the theater. 764 00:47:02,761 --> 00:47:08,311 And then my audition was Douglas Turner Ward and Robert Hooks said that the work 765 00:47:08,311 --> 00:47:11,881 that I had done with the Free Southern Theater, some of which had been televised 766 00:47:11,881 --> 00:47:19,051 in New York, and with the Open Theater and Judson Poets Theater and the thing with 767 00:47:19,051 --> 00:47:24,031 the biblical infos, they accepted me into the com company on the basis of work done. 768 00:47:24,781 --> 00:47:28,681 So that was the beginning of really my professional career. 769 00:47:29,221 --> 00:47:32,851 So I was there for the training program and there for the first 770 00:47:32,851 --> 00:47:35,071 season, which was incredible. 771 00:47:35,431 --> 00:47:40,246 And we opened with a play, the Song of the Luan Bogey by Peter 772 00:47:40,246 --> 00:47:44,941 Weiss, which was a song, a play about the Portuguese in Africa. 773 00:47:45,031 --> 00:47:45,121 So. 774 00:47:46,321 --> 00:47:47,551 It was right up my alley. 775 00:47:47,696 --> 00:47:49,711 I was, I was in negro heaven. 776 00:47:49,981 --> 00:47:54,871 And so then, uh, I did that first season and, and that's when a, BCE 777 00:47:54,871 --> 00:48:00,271 had sent, um, agents to the theater to see the, the new, the big hot 778 00:48:00,271 --> 00:48:02,131 theater, the Negro Summer company. 779 00:48:02,371 --> 00:48:07,141 And they reached out to me to come in for a reading for a new series. 780 00:48:07,561 --> 00:48:10,561 I didn't know anything about it, so I went in, I got the 781 00:48:10,561 --> 00:48:12,031 reading, and I did the reading. 782 00:48:12,031 --> 00:48:13,471 I came back to work at the theater. 783 00:48:13,966 --> 00:48:18,166 And then soon after that they said they wanted me to do a callback. 784 00:48:18,556 --> 00:48:21,466 I went and did a callback in New York, and then they said, we wanna fly you 785 00:48:21,466 --> 00:48:23,146 to California to do a screen test. 786 00:48:23,146 --> 00:48:28,096 So I, they, I hadn't even been in California, so I went to California 787 00:48:28,516 --> 00:48:31,516 and they, you know, they take very good care of you, at least they used to. 788 00:48:31,906 --> 00:48:36,646 And I did a screen test for room 2 22, came back to New York as I 789 00:48:36,646 --> 00:48:40,876 waited for, for the answer on the screen test, they flew me back to 790 00:48:40,876 --> 00:48:43,396 Los Angeles for a personality test. 791 00:48:44,206 --> 00:48:47,386 Which is where they just stand you in front of a camera and turn 792 00:48:47,386 --> 00:48:50,266 the camera on and ask you a couple of questions, and you just talk 793 00:48:50,266 --> 00:48:51,766 your head off like I'm doing now. 794 00:48:53,056 --> 00:48:53,836 That worked. 795 00:48:53,896 --> 00:48:58,486 So soon after that, they told me I had the role on room 2 22 and I, it was 796 00:48:58,486 --> 00:49:00,406 time for me to move to Los Angeles. 797 00:49:00,406 --> 00:49:02,476 So that's, that's how that played out. 798 00:49:02,896 --> 00:49:06,766 Being one of the few people of color on television at that time. 799 00:49:06,766 --> 00:49:08,566 Talk to us about that experience. 800 00:49:09,256 --> 00:49:15,991 Well, you know, I. Because I had been in the civil rights movement and because 801 00:49:15,991 --> 00:49:20,311 I still paid attention to all of the, the stuff going on in Mississippi and 802 00:49:20,791 --> 00:49:23,431 in Alabama and, and deep south places. 803 00:49:23,431 --> 00:49:27,211 And I stayed tuned in, tuned into the movement even after I went on, 804 00:49:27,631 --> 00:49:29,671 uh, to be a professional actor. 805 00:49:30,361 --> 00:49:32,911 So I think. 806 00:49:33,271 --> 00:49:39,691 I think what I wanted to do, what I wanted to do was room 2 22 while it's filming, 807 00:49:40,291 --> 00:49:46,561 and as soon as the the filming season is over, I wanted to go back to New York and 808 00:49:46,561 --> 00:49:48,541 be a member of the Negro Ensemble Company. 809 00:49:48,541 --> 00:49:51,931 That was my dream situation. 810 00:49:52,876 --> 00:49:58,366 Uh, so after the first season, I went back to New York, uh, and, you know, met 811 00:49:58,366 --> 00:50:02,716 with the, the people who run the theater, Douglas Turner Award and Robert Hooks, and 812 00:50:02,716 --> 00:50:04,786 they said, no, they needed a full company. 813 00:50:04,786 --> 00:50:07,456 They couldn't have people coming in and going out, blah, blah, blah. 814 00:50:07,936 --> 00:50:08,866 So I said, okay. 815 00:50:08,866 --> 00:50:13,726 So I just, you know, came back to LA and decided to focus on film and television, 816 00:50:14,326 --> 00:50:16,516 uh, to see what I could make happen. 817 00:50:16,666 --> 00:50:20,536 And that's the be, that's the first, that's the first chunk. 818 00:50:20,811 --> 00:50:23,781 Of my career in Los Angeles, in Hollywood. 819 00:50:23,781 --> 00:50:25,881 That right there, what I just described. 820 00:50:26,841 --> 00:50:33,381 What first convinced you that acting is what you really wanted to do? 821 00:50:34,126 --> 00:50:35,121 What, what changed? 822 00:50:35,241 --> 00:50:35,691 What, what? 823 00:50:35,691 --> 00:50:37,101 What changed your focus? 824 00:50:38,116 --> 00:50:44,506 I, you know, I don't, I don't know that I ever felt that way about acting. 825 00:50:45,016 --> 00:50:46,456 I enjoyed it. 826 00:50:47,176 --> 00:50:51,256 Um, I certainly enjoyed making money and you get a lot, you know, 827 00:50:51,256 --> 00:50:54,376 if you're on a series like that, you get a whole lot of attention. 828 00:50:54,376 --> 00:50:59,656 You know, pr tons of press attention and just, you get a lot of attention, period. 829 00:50:59,656 --> 00:51:02,596 Just people walking down the street, they see you, oh, aren't you on tv? 830 00:51:02,896 --> 00:51:04,336 And that happens a lot. 831 00:51:04,876 --> 00:51:06,676 So that. 832 00:51:07,156 --> 00:51:10,126 That was, you know, that's a part of the deal when you do that. 833 00:51:10,426 --> 00:51:15,586 But inside I always wanted something else and it had to do with writing. 834 00:51:16,216 --> 00:51:20,326 I was a good English student at University of Michigan in high school, 835 00:51:20,536 --> 00:51:24,046 and when I got to Ann Arbor, I exempted out of the first year of English 836 00:51:24,256 --> 00:51:27,136 that they require freshmen to take. 837 00:51:27,616 --> 00:51:30,166 And even though I wasn't thinking. 838 00:51:31,096 --> 00:51:33,436 No, I was thinking about being a writer. 839 00:51:33,436 --> 00:51:35,656 I did not know how to be a writer. 840 00:51:35,806 --> 00:51:38,146 I didn't even know how to get that door open. 841 00:51:38,146 --> 00:51:42,226 It was like this great fantasy I carried around in my head that I was gonna, I 842 00:51:42,226 --> 00:51:46,456 was gonna write a great book or I was gonna, I was gonna be a writer because 843 00:51:46,456 --> 00:51:49,096 I read so much and I so loved fiction. 844 00:51:49,456 --> 00:51:53,566 Um, and I took all the English classes, I took classes that I 845 00:51:53,566 --> 00:51:55,396 wanted to take, and I discovered. 846 00:51:55,791 --> 00:51:59,781 Different poets and different, uh, literary figures from England 847 00:51:59,781 --> 00:52:01,251 and France and everywhere. 848 00:52:01,251 --> 00:52:02,331 And I thought, oh my God. 849 00:52:02,331 --> 00:52:07,341 And I was, as I said earlier, I was a reader and I just loved books and I loved 850 00:52:07,341 --> 00:52:12,081 words, and I loved that whole, you know, of course what I had in my head was an 851 00:52:12,081 --> 00:52:15,981 idealized version of it, you know, not knowing how hard the work was until 852 00:52:15,981 --> 00:52:22,491 later, but that's what I really always wanted to do, is what I'm doing now. 853 00:52:23,101 --> 00:52:23,611 Right. 854 00:52:24,841 --> 00:52:28,321 I think that one of the first things you had published was in Essence 855 00:52:28,921 --> 00:52:29,581 Yes. 856 00:52:29,596 --> 00:52:29,946 Uhhuh. 857 00:52:31,261 --> 00:52:31,321 Yeah. 858 00:52:31,321 --> 00:52:31,786 And what was that? 859 00:52:32,791 --> 00:52:35,521 That was, uh, a little short piece. 860 00:52:36,151 --> 00:52:42,691 My sister Michelle, who's the one who was murdered in New York and two other 861 00:52:42,691 --> 00:52:46,501 close, close, close family, friends, older women from Detroit came to California 862 00:52:46,501 --> 00:52:49,141 to visit me, and we took a trip. 863 00:52:49,711 --> 00:52:53,281 I bought a new Mercedes and the four lady, the three of them got 864 00:52:53,281 --> 00:52:57,001 in my car and oh, we went up to San Francisco on the coast route, which 865 00:52:57,001 --> 00:52:58,441 is a beautiful, beautiful trip. 866 00:52:58,711 --> 00:53:03,061 And I wanted to show people them, 'cause they were people that I loved dearly. 867 00:53:03,211 --> 00:53:06,631 I wanted to show them the beauty of California, and particularly the 868 00:53:06,631 --> 00:53:10,561 beauty of the coast, ride by the ocean all the way up to San Francisco. 869 00:53:10,921 --> 00:53:12,151 So that's what we did. 870 00:53:12,301 --> 00:53:13,441 And we had an adventure. 871 00:53:13,771 --> 00:53:17,071 Some of the, I mean, most everything was beautiful, but we had some. 872 00:53:17,336 --> 00:53:19,136 Stressful things as well. 873 00:53:19,466 --> 00:53:23,876 So when I got back and everybody went off, went home, I started 874 00:53:24,146 --> 00:53:27,056 writing a piece about the trip and. 875 00:53:28,606 --> 00:53:33,106 So I kind of, I didn't, this was my first attempt at writing anything. 876 00:53:33,106 --> 00:53:38,116 And I had a friend at Essence and I sent the piece to my, my friends there, 877 00:53:38,446 --> 00:53:39,796 and they said, we can publish it. 878 00:53:39,796 --> 00:53:41,026 And I was like, you are kidding. 879 00:53:41,056 --> 00:53:41,236 You know? 880 00:53:41,236 --> 00:53:42,466 I didn't even believe it. 881 00:53:42,736 --> 00:53:43,846 And so they did. 882 00:53:43,846 --> 00:53:47,476 And it's a little, I, I read it now 'cause I, I still have a copy of it and it's a 883 00:53:47,476 --> 00:53:52,246 little rough around the edges, but I did a rewrite on it and it's published again. 884 00:53:52,641 --> 00:53:56,181 And the volume, a gathering of voices, which comes out of the 885 00:53:56,331 --> 00:53:59,691 writing workshop that I ran here in my house for a few years. 886 00:53:59,961 --> 00:54:04,701 So we produced a volume of short pieces by all the members of the workshop 887 00:54:04,851 --> 00:54:08,721 and my p, one of my pieces is that piece about the trip up the coast. 888 00:54:09,441 --> 00:54:13,341 What was some of the things that you learned and gathered from that workshop? 889 00:54:13,666 --> 00:54:19,606 Well, I, I had taken a class with, uh, a workshop with a, a 890 00:54:19,606 --> 00:54:21,736 writer whose name is Janet Fitch. 891 00:54:22,006 --> 00:54:27,706 She wrote a book called White Olender, which was a huge, huge, huge hit. 892 00:54:28,516 --> 00:54:34,066 And I, I had a, a friend who was in her workshop, and this 893 00:54:34,066 --> 00:54:37,696 is all after, in the heat of the night, was, uh, was, uh, stopped. 894 00:54:38,011 --> 00:54:41,401 So I had started writing on in the Heat of the Night 'cause Carol 895 00:54:41,401 --> 00:54:42,811 O'Connor gave me a shot to write. 896 00:54:42,811 --> 00:54:47,341 So I did six episodes and then I thought by the, at the end of that I said, okay, 897 00:54:47,341 --> 00:54:50,071 now I'm in the lane that I wanna be in. 898 00:54:50,311 --> 00:54:53,011 I'm writing and I'm getting paid to write. 899 00:54:53,401 --> 00:54:56,911 So then my friend told friend told me about Janet Fitch's workshop. 900 00:54:56,911 --> 00:55:01,531 So I went and, and auditioned by sending her something that I was working on 901 00:55:01,621 --> 00:55:03,511 and she accepted me in the workshop. 902 00:55:03,901 --> 00:55:08,701 So Freshwater Road comes out of that workshop, every single word. 903 00:55:09,271 --> 00:55:15,691 So it was, um, about a three and a half year writing, uh, period to get 904 00:55:15,691 --> 00:55:20,341 that book done, to get it written, and with a lot of good help from people 905 00:55:20,341 --> 00:55:21,841 in the workshop because they were. 906 00:55:22,426 --> 00:55:23,596 The, it was critical. 907 00:55:23,596 --> 00:55:27,856 You had to present your work and you had to accept the criticism, discuss 908 00:55:27,856 --> 00:55:30,076 it, and then go back and do rewrites. 909 00:55:30,256 --> 00:55:34,066 So when I started the workshop here, it was based on what I had 910 00:55:34,336 --> 00:55:36,316 experienced in that workshop. 911 00:55:36,466 --> 00:55:39,916 So I gathered five other people who were interested in writing all, all 912 00:55:39,916 --> 00:55:44,686 of people, people I knew before and many, um, they were all working on one. 913 00:55:45,406 --> 00:55:49,516 One project or another, uh, as writer is fledgling, 914 00:55:49,846 --> 00:55:52,036 fledgling, or beginning writers. 915 00:55:52,516 --> 00:56:00,466 So at the workshop I try to emulate what Janet Fitch had done in that workshop, 916 00:56:00,466 --> 00:56:02,656 which was so incredibly successful. 917 00:56:03,496 --> 00:56:08,176 So I brought her teachings to this group of people, and it has, 918 00:56:08,176 --> 00:56:10,396 it has basic, very basic things. 919 00:56:11,311 --> 00:56:16,411 One of the things that she used to teach, uh, and hammer into our bony 920 00:56:16,411 --> 00:56:19,051 heads was writing the the senses. 921 00:56:19,351 --> 00:56:23,491 You are a human being and you have five senses, and all those senses have to 922 00:56:23,491 --> 00:56:28,771 be at play when you write a character because they are human beings, and 923 00:56:28,771 --> 00:56:34,471 that helps the reader feel and get to know the character that you're writing. 924 00:56:34,771 --> 00:56:38,491 Denise Nicholas, actress, activist, writer, and author 925 00:56:38,491 --> 00:56:40,321 of Finding Home a memoir. 926 00:56:40,966 --> 00:56:44,686 If you have questions, comments, or suggestions as to future in black America, 927 00:56:44,686 --> 00:56:49,516 ros, email us at In Black america@kut.org. 928 00:56:49,996 --> 00:56:52,996 Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. 929 00:56:53,596 --> 00:56:58,486 Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook nx. 930 00:56:58,891 --> 00:57:02,071 You can have previous programs online@kut.org. 931 00:57:03,121 --> 00:57:06,361 Also, you can listen to a special collection of In Black America 932 00:57:06,361 --> 00:57:12,451 programs at American Archive of Public Broadcasting as American archives.org. 933 00:57:12,901 --> 00:57:16,591 The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessary 934 00:57:16,591 --> 00:57:20,431 those of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. 935 00:57:21,001 --> 00:57:25,261 Until we have the opportunity again for a technical producer, David Alvarez. 936 00:57:25,561 --> 00:57:29,131 I'm Johnelle Hansen, Jr. Thank you for joining us today. 937 00:57:29,431 --> 00:57:31,501 Please join us again next week. 938 00:57:31,711 --> 00:57:35,461 Cd copies of this program are available and may be purchased 939 00:57:35,461 --> 00:57:37,561 by writing in Black America. 940 00:57:37,561 --> 00:57:45,361 CDs, KUT Radio 300 West Dean Keaton Boulevard, Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2. 941 00:57:46,111 --> 00:57:47,551 That's in Black America. 942 00:57:47,551 --> 00:57:51,886 CDs, KUT Radio 300 West Dean Keaton Boulevard. 943 00:57:52,531 --> 00:57:55,231 Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2. 944 00:57:57,121 --> 00:57:59,616 This has been a production of KUT radio.