1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:03,660 If you're a podcaster or you wanna learn more about podcasting, then 2 00:00:03,660 --> 00:00:09,570 you are invited to the K-U-T-K-U-T-X Studios Podcast Meetup on Wednesday, 3 00:00:09,570 --> 00:00:13,920 November 5th, from six to 8:00 PM at K UT Public Media Studios. 4 00:00:13,950 --> 00:00:17,220 You'll get a tour of the station and a short presentation about what we're 5 00:00:17,220 --> 00:00:22,380 up to here, but mostly this is about meeting other Austin area podcasters. 6 00:00:22,860 --> 00:00:26,610 There's gonna be free pizza and drinks, and you can r RSVP and 7 00:00:26,610 --> 00:00:29,640 find out more@kut.org slash. 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:30,740 Podcast. 9 00:00:47,025 --> 00:00:49,785 From the University of Texas at Austin. 10 00:00:49,995 --> 00:00:51,165 KUT Radio. 11 00:00:51,735 --> 00:00:53,894 This is in black America. 12 00:00:54,165 --> 00:00:56,565 Well, John, I have been working in. 13 00:00:57,330 --> 00:01:00,390 Social justice spaces for almost 30 years. 14 00:01:00,390 --> 00:01:03,570 It was 30 years ago that I ran my very first organizing campaign as 15 00:01:03,570 --> 00:01:06,390 a high school student in Seattle, Washington for ethnic studies. 16 00:01:06,390 --> 00:01:09,929 And um, so I have had the privilege of working in many different kinds 17 00:01:09,929 --> 00:01:14,430 of movements from labor unions to, to LGBT rights, to reproductive 18 00:01:14,430 --> 00:01:16,890 justice, to um, immigrant rights. 19 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:21,930 And I want our communities and I want our movements to win. 20 00:01:22,289 --> 00:01:25,380 And I am very clear that there is no movement that is. 21 00:01:25,730 --> 00:01:28,940 Worth its salt that is serious about winning, but benches. 22 00:01:28,940 --> 00:01:33,620 Its MVPs for no good reason, particularly in the clutch moment of a big game. 23 00:01:33,980 --> 00:01:36,620 And we are in the fight of our lives in this moment against 24 00:01:36,620 --> 00:01:37,880 fascism in this country. 25 00:01:38,210 --> 00:01:42,920 We absolutely need our full strength as movements, and much of that strength 26 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,285 comes from our best and brightest leaders, so many of whom are women of color. 27 00:01:46,965 --> 00:01:51,585 Vanessa Daniels social justice activist and organizer and author of Un Rigged 28 00:01:51,585 --> 00:01:55,515 the Game, what Women of Color Can Teach Everyone about Winning Published 29 00:01:55,515 --> 00:01:58,035 by Random House in this country. 30 00:01:58,035 --> 00:02:01,065 Many of the most significant social justice and environmental 31 00:02:01,065 --> 00:02:04,725 victories of our time have been spearheaded by women of color leaders. 32 00:02:05,145 --> 00:02:08,805 African American women founded Black Lives Matter, me Too, and the 33 00:02:08,805 --> 00:02:10,610 US Reproductive Justice Movement. 34 00:02:11,355 --> 00:02:16,875 Three of the most influential social change efforts in decades as a former 35 00:02:16,875 --> 00:02:20,745 community and union organizer who started one of the largest foundations to 36 00:02:20,745 --> 00:02:23,175 resource women of color led organizing. 37 00:02:23,475 --> 00:02:26,865 Daniels dragged on candidate interviews with 47 prominent 38 00:02:26,865 --> 00:02:28,365 women of color movement leaders. 39 00:02:29,135 --> 00:02:32,195 She also brings to the book Her Own Experience at the ham of an 40 00:02:32,195 --> 00:02:36,545 organization to offer an on the ground perspective of obstacles leaders face. 41 00:02:37,415 --> 00:02:42,155 I'm Johnny O. Hanson Jr. And welcome to another edition of In Black America. 42 00:02:42,635 --> 00:02:45,065 On this week's program, un rigged the Game. 43 00:02:45,065 --> 00:02:48,035 What Women of Color Can Teach Everyone about Winning with 44 00:02:48,035 --> 00:02:50,885 Vanessa Daniel in Black America. 45 00:02:51,125 --> 00:02:54,245 You know, in the book I have something called the Job Description, 46 00:02:54,245 --> 00:02:58,535 which lists, it's the long list of things that women of color leaders. 47 00:02:58,950 --> 00:03:02,160 Are expected to do and put up with in movement, right? 48 00:03:02,190 --> 00:03:04,170 Uh, that is driving a lot of people outta leadership. 49 00:03:04,170 --> 00:03:09,870 But you know, the top five that I emphasize the most are, uh, the top 50 00:03:09,870 --> 00:03:10,980 five things that are benching us. 51 00:03:10,980 --> 00:03:13,860 One is the invitation onto a glass cliff. 52 00:03:13,860 --> 00:03:18,630 So to lead an organization in crisis, see this all the time of 53 00:03:19,050 --> 00:03:22,470 women of color being brought in when an organization is in a free fall. 54 00:03:22,730 --> 00:03:27,350 And then expect it to either work our black or brown girl magic to save it or 55 00:03:27,350 --> 00:03:29,210 take the fall for somebody else's mess. 56 00:03:29,660 --> 00:03:33,320 This also by the way, looks like Kamala Harris being asked to mount a campaign 57 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,030 with less time than any other candidate. 58 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:41,390 The number two thing that benches us is the assumption of incompetence, 59 00:03:41,390 --> 00:03:44,960 which causes us to work four times as hard to be seen as half as 60 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,850 credible, and that weathers our health, uh, our mental and physical 61 00:03:49,850 --> 00:03:51,710 and spiritual health and wellbeing. 62 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,850 For 25 years, Vanessa Daniels worked in social justice movements as a labor 63 00:03:56,850 --> 00:03:58,830 and community organizer and funder. 64 00:03:59,310 --> 00:04:04,200 She founded and served for 17 years as Executive director of Groundswell Fund. 65 00:04:04,410 --> 00:04:07,920 A living funder of women of color led grassroots organizing. 66 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:09,900 In her book, I'm Rigged The Game. 67 00:04:09,900 --> 00:04:13,110 Daniel offered guidance on the leadership needed to tackle the social 68 00:04:13,110 --> 00:04:14,910 and economic problems of the future. 69 00:04:15,270 --> 00:04:19,320 Women of color has repeatedly demonstrated how essential they are in the battle for 70 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:24,330 social and environmental change from the streets to the ballot box to Congress. 71 00:04:24,330 --> 00:04:28,860 No other demographic group in this nation stands up more strongly against hate and 72 00:04:28,860 --> 00:04:33,270 more clearly for freedom, climate action, and human rights, and the fight for 73 00:04:33,270 --> 00:04:35,370 democracy, justice, and the environment. 74 00:04:35,670 --> 00:04:38,475 The book declares women of color are leading on every count. 75 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,659 Despite ample proof that women of color are effective leaders, Daniel 76 00:04:42,659 --> 00:04:46,860 argued that they are unutilized in social movement work and often lack 77 00:04:46,860 --> 00:04:49,380 full support barriers to movement. 78 00:04:49,380 --> 00:04:53,580 And those working in them harm all races and genders, but exactly, 79 00:04:53,580 --> 00:04:57,960 and especially harsh toll on women of color leaders in black America. 80 00:04:57,960 --> 00:04:59,700 Spoke with Vanessa Daniel, 81 00:05:00,060 --> 00:05:05,219 I come, well, I was born in Chicago, but raised in Seattle, Washington in the. 82 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:11,880 Eighties and nineties and, uh, grew up in that city as a half Sri Lankan and half 83 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:16,440 white kid, uh, in, in that era of time. 84 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:23,940 And was really influenced by just the experience of growing up in 85 00:05:23,940 --> 00:05:29,070 that particular brand of racism in the northwest, uh, uh, to, 86 00:05:29,190 --> 00:05:31,409 to go into social justice work. 87 00:05:31,530 --> 00:05:33,570 And so that's where I hail from. 88 00:05:34,245 --> 00:05:36,765 Lived all over the country, but back here now in the Pacific 89 00:05:36,765 --> 00:05:38,535 Northwest in Tacoma, Washington, 90 00:05:39,135 --> 00:05:42,615 it seems that a lot of people that I speak with have some type 91 00:05:42,615 --> 00:05:44,355 of connection to Austin, Texas. 92 00:05:44,355 --> 00:05:45,915 Talk to us about your connection. 93 00:05:46,125 --> 00:05:50,385 I don't have a direct connection to Austin, Texas, but um, I. 94 00:05:50,850 --> 00:05:53,850 Of course have have funded different groups in the state 95 00:05:53,850 --> 00:05:55,440 of Texas over the years. 96 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:02,430 My background is as a community and labor organizer, and uh, then I spent 97 00:06:02,430 --> 00:06:05,790 about 20 years running a foundation called Groundswell Fund, which. 98 00:06:06,270 --> 00:06:10,260 Funded community organizing, particularly work led by women of 99 00:06:10,260 --> 00:06:14,850 color and L-G-B-T-Q, people of color throughout the United States across 100 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,010 every major social justice movement. 101 00:06:17,010 --> 00:06:21,630 And that definitely included some groups in, in the great state of Texas 102 00:06:21,630 --> 00:06:26,490 and a lot of respect and admiration for those who are working for social 103 00:06:26,490 --> 00:06:31,170 justice and for racial and gender justice in, uh, states like Texas 104 00:06:31,170 --> 00:06:32,730 and throughout the south because. 105 00:06:33,255 --> 00:06:35,655 As the south goes, so does the rest of the country. 106 00:06:35,655 --> 00:06:39,075 So a lot of appreciation and respect for the work that goes on there. 107 00:06:39,164 --> 00:06:40,604 Well, that's what I was alluding to. 108 00:06:40,604 --> 00:06:44,864 Obviously some women had given you courage to do what you do that 109 00:06:44,864 --> 00:06:46,905 were based here in Austin, Texas. 110 00:06:46,965 --> 00:06:48,645 That's what I was, uh, particularly referring to. 111 00:06:48,974 --> 00:06:49,364 Yeah. 112 00:06:49,364 --> 00:06:55,065 I I think that the, the people who I have supported in, in Austin, 113 00:06:55,065 --> 00:06:57,435 Texas, like the national, uh, Latina. 114 00:06:57,810 --> 00:07:02,310 Institute, um, for reproductive justice and other groups have 115 00:07:02,310 --> 00:07:08,160 been really, really critical to, to the, to the work nationally. 116 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,210 And, you know, it's been a privilege to, to be in communication with 117 00:07:12,510 --> 00:07:17,610 the black women's round table and to support black voters matter and 118 00:07:17,610 --> 00:07:21,330 groups that work in states like Texas and, and throughout the South 119 00:07:21,630 --> 00:07:23,880 give us that, uh, background about groundswell. 120 00:07:25,169 --> 00:07:25,680 Sure. 121 00:07:26,340 --> 00:07:32,700 Well, when I finished about a decade of work as a community and a labor organizer, 122 00:07:33,210 --> 00:07:39,330 I came into philanthropy as a community fellow, which back in the early two 123 00:07:39,330 --> 00:07:42,270 thousands was one of the only ways that people who have worked on the ground with 124 00:07:42,270 --> 00:07:43,950 communities could come into philanthropy. 125 00:07:45,085 --> 00:07:51,475 And, um, I was introduced to the reproductive justice movement, which 126 00:07:51,475 --> 00:07:56,305 at the time was 15 years old and started by black women like Loretta 127 00:07:56,305 --> 00:08:01,795 Ross, the, the Great Loretta Ross and, um, was very inspired to. 128 00:08:02,820 --> 00:08:06,840 Crosswalk by organizing skills into organizing resources for this movement. 129 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:12,330 So, um, ended up raising resources and groundswell evolved to become 130 00:08:12,330 --> 00:08:17,040 one of the largest funders of women of color led or organizing both 131 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,850 electoral and just community-based organizing across the country. 132 00:08:21,060 --> 00:08:25,800 And, you know, it is, we moved a hundred million dollars to over 200 133 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,580 organizations across the country, and it was a unique model in that. 134 00:08:29,924 --> 00:08:35,355 The majority of people who held the decision making power from our board 135 00:08:35,355 --> 00:08:37,725 of directors to our senior staff. 136 00:08:38,130 --> 00:08:43,530 All the way on down were women of color who came out of the organizing sector, 137 00:08:43,530 --> 00:08:48,060 who came out of working on the ground in our communities, and, um, was very proud 138 00:08:48,060 --> 00:08:54,120 to have a board of directors that had a executive committee that was predominantly 139 00:08:54,180 --> 00:08:59,340 black women who, um, were leaders in, in different movements for black liberation. 140 00:08:59,490 --> 00:09:02,880 And, um, that was really, really important to me. 141 00:09:03,405 --> 00:09:10,395 As a non-black woman of color to, to really invite and receive and, and 142 00:09:10,515 --> 00:09:13,695 honor that kind of guidance, that kind of political clarity and moral clarity 143 00:09:13,695 --> 00:09:15,135 and the guidance of our strategy. 144 00:09:15,585 --> 00:09:16,935 So that was the work of Groundswell. 145 00:09:16,935 --> 00:09:20,175 I, I ran it for, I founded it and ran it for 17 years. 146 00:09:20,865 --> 00:09:24,915 And, um, it was one of the inspirations for this book that I just wrote. 147 00:09:25,515 --> 00:09:29,925 What are some of the other organizations that you serve on as on the board? 148 00:09:30,225 --> 00:09:31,694 Oh, that I currently serve on? 149 00:09:31,694 --> 00:09:31,785 Yes. 150 00:09:32,265 --> 00:09:36,464 Um, I currently have the privilege of serving as co-chair of the 151 00:09:36,464 --> 00:09:38,954 national L-G-B-T-Q Task Force. 152 00:09:38,985 --> 00:09:39,135 Mm-hmm. 153 00:09:39,824 --> 00:09:42,944 And, um, I'm on the advisory boards of the. 154 00:09:43,740 --> 00:09:48,030 Environmental Justice resource collective of the Ali Foundation, which is a 155 00:09:48,030 --> 00:09:52,980 group of eight women of color who just finished advising about 75 million 156 00:09:52,980 --> 00:09:57,150 to go to mostly women of color led work in the climate justice space. 157 00:09:57,150 --> 00:10:01,920 I have the privilege of serving on the brain trust of the Democracy 158 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:07,710 Frontline Fund, which supports black led organizing across this country and, 159 00:10:07,710 --> 00:10:10,050 um, among other, among other endeavors. 160 00:10:10,050 --> 00:10:12,085 So it's, it's an honor to be able to. 161 00:10:12,735 --> 00:10:15,375 Serving a volunteer capacity in many of these 162 00:10:16,245 --> 00:10:21,165 and reading your work, it seems like this is an autobiography, somewhat therapeutic. 163 00:10:21,165 --> 00:10:23,775 What led you to, to take on this undertaking? 164 00:10:24,195 --> 00:10:31,545 Well, uh, John, I have been working in social justice spaces for almost 30 years. 165 00:10:31,545 --> 00:10:32,355 It was 30 years ago. 166 00:10:32,355 --> 00:10:34,995 Then I ran my very first organizing campaign as a high 167 00:10:34,995 --> 00:10:37,815 school student in Seattle, Washington for ethnic studies and. 168 00:10:38,490 --> 00:10:41,459 Um, so I have had the privilege of working in many different kinds 169 00:10:41,459 --> 00:10:46,020 of movements from labor unions to, to LGBT rights, to reproductive 170 00:10:46,020 --> 00:10:49,020 justice, to um, immigrant rights, and. 171 00:10:49,770 --> 00:10:54,210 I want our communities and I want our movements to win. 172 00:10:54,630 --> 00:10:59,760 And I am very clear that there is no movement that is worth its salt that 173 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:01,290 is serious about winning that benches. 174 00:11:01,290 --> 00:11:06,060 Its MVPs for no good reason, particularly in the clutch moment of a big game. 175 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,060 And we are in the fight of our lives in this moment against 176 00:11:09,060 --> 00:11:10,350 fascism in this country. 177 00:11:10,650 --> 00:11:13,665 We absolutely need our full strength as movements and. 178 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,640 Much of that strength comes from our best and brightest leaders, so 179 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,080 many of whom are women of color. 180 00:11:19,380 --> 00:11:21,570 I know I don't need to tell you. 181 00:11:21,570 --> 00:11:25,380 And this program and where you're located, that you know, women of color 182 00:11:25,380 --> 00:11:27,900 and black women in particular have been the backbone of movements in this 183 00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:30,660 country, and yet we have never had. 184 00:11:31,110 --> 00:11:34,440 A serious conversation in the public square about how much our 185 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,620 movements could be winning if we truly valued the strategic 186 00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:38,760 brilliance that they're bringing. 187 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:43,170 And if we stopped making leadership positions so treacherous for them. 188 00:11:43,500 --> 00:11:47,250 So my inspiration was I wanted to write a book that would really. 189 00:11:47,609 --> 00:11:53,160 Help draw people's attention to the superpowers that they bring to movements. 190 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:54,930 And I emphasize three in particular. 191 00:11:54,959 --> 00:11:59,339 And then also to the barriers that we can all be aware of and lift 192 00:11:59,729 --> 00:12:02,339 to help them do their work better. 193 00:12:02,339 --> 00:12:04,079 When they win, we all win. 194 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:09,719 And you know, these are very difficult times and I came out of this process of 195 00:12:09,719 --> 00:12:13,859 interviewing almost 50 prominent women of color movement leaders for this book, 196 00:12:13,949 --> 00:12:16,500 feeling very hopeful and feeling very. 197 00:12:17,145 --> 00:12:20,775 Inspired about our ability to win, and I think that that is something 198 00:12:20,775 --> 00:12:22,365 that we all need in these times. 199 00:12:22,365 --> 00:12:26,175 It is so demoralizing as we turn on the news every day. 200 00:12:26,205 --> 00:12:28,200 It is, you know, it. 201 00:12:28,815 --> 00:12:34,185 It is so, um, fear inducing what we're seeing happening to our country every day. 202 00:12:34,185 --> 00:12:35,895 It is another terrible story. 203 00:12:35,955 --> 00:12:40,875 And so this book that has winning in the title and that reminds us that we 204 00:12:40,875 --> 00:12:44,895 can win and reminds us that we have an embarrassment of riches right under 205 00:12:44,895 --> 00:12:49,575 our nose in these leaders that we can unlock to help us meet this moment. 206 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,910 Is, I hope, something that is going to leave folks inspired. 207 00:12:53,910 --> 00:12:56,340 And that's a lot of the feedback that I've been getting on the book tour, 208 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,990 uh, on the road is that people feel renewed and inspired by reading this 209 00:13:00,990 --> 00:13:06,270 and, and, um, in the work they're doing to continue forth, continue building 210 00:13:06,270 --> 00:13:09,870 on the work of our ancestors and this critical moment in this country, 211 00:13:10,620 --> 00:13:15,000 I guess the elephant in the room, how is the game being rigged in your opinion? 212 00:13:15,750 --> 00:13:16,500 Yeah, well. 213 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:22,080 You know, in the book I have something called the job description, which lists, 214 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,700 it's the long list of things that women of color leaders are expected to do 215 00:13:26,700 --> 00:13:28,680 and put up with in movement, right? 216 00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:30,630 Uh, that is driving a lot of people outta leadership. 217 00:13:30,630 --> 00:13:36,390 But you know, the top five that I emphasize the most are, uh, the top 218 00:13:36,390 --> 00:13:37,500 five things that are benching us. 219 00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:41,010 One is the invitation onto a glass cliff. 220 00:13:41,010 --> 00:13:43,500 So to lead an organization in crisis. 221 00:13:43,890 --> 00:13:48,420 And see this all the time of women of color being brought in when an 222 00:13:48,420 --> 00:13:53,250 organization is in a free fall and then expected to either work our black or 223 00:13:53,250 --> 00:13:56,970 brown girl magic to save it or take the fall for somebody else's mess. 224 00:13:57,420 --> 00:14:01,080 This also, by the way, looks like Kamala Harris being asked to mount a campaign 225 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,790 with less time than any other candidate. 226 00:14:03,630 --> 00:14:09,750 Uh, the, the number two thing that benches us is the assumption of incompetence, 227 00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:13,890 which causes us to work four times as hard to be seen as half as credible. 228 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:18,479 And that weathers our health, uh, our mental and physical and 229 00:14:18,479 --> 00:14:20,130 spiritual health and wellbeing. 230 00:14:20,459 --> 00:14:24,329 And it wastes a lot of time and, and drains our energy. 231 00:14:24,959 --> 00:14:26,579 Uh, the, the. 232 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,500 Leaders that I talked to, um, I'll give an example of an incredible, 233 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,250 uh, black woman organizer, Gloria Walton, who's nationally recognized. 234 00:14:35,250 --> 00:14:40,170 She now leads the Solutions Project, but talked about working for 13 years 235 00:14:40,170 --> 00:14:46,199 without a real vacation until she ended up in the ER with chest pain and so 236 00:14:46,199 --> 00:14:48,125 many stories that I heard from leaders. 237 00:14:48,810 --> 00:14:53,910 Similar to this about the overwork and the toll on people's physical health 238 00:14:54,510 --> 00:15:00,210 that it is taking to, to meet these unreasonable demands and to overcome 239 00:15:00,210 --> 00:15:01,470 the assumption of incompetence. 240 00:15:01,890 --> 00:15:07,290 The number three reason is the expectation to mother and mammy, and this was by 241 00:15:07,290 --> 00:15:13,650 far the biggest pain point that I heard talking to leaders, and this is the. 242 00:15:14,205 --> 00:15:18,135 Being cast as mean or aggressive or normal levels of assertiveness that 243 00:15:18,135 --> 00:15:20,385 would be accepted from any other leader. 244 00:15:20,385 --> 00:15:22,905 It's being told you're cold or unfeeling. 245 00:15:22,905 --> 00:15:27,255 Anytime you say no, it is the expectation that you not just create 246 00:15:27,255 --> 00:15:28,965 an organizational environment that is. 247 00:15:29,805 --> 00:15:34,485 Uh, fair and sustainable, but that you create a utopia where no one 248 00:15:34,485 --> 00:15:36,825 ever feels a discomfort or a trigger. 249 00:15:37,155 --> 00:15:40,005 And then the punishment that is often meted out against 250 00:15:40,005 --> 00:15:41,415 you in the public square. 251 00:15:41,415 --> 00:15:45,585 If you don't deliver on this impossible standard, it is the 252 00:15:45,585 --> 00:15:47,505 expectation that you perform. 253 00:15:47,535 --> 00:15:47,955 Uh. 254 00:15:48,265 --> 00:15:53,064 Degree of vulnerability in order to make people less comfortable 255 00:15:53,064 --> 00:15:56,665 with the specter of a woman of color fully standing in her power. 256 00:15:56,665 --> 00:16:01,675 And I will say that I heard more from black women than from any other group 257 00:16:02,334 --> 00:16:09,055 that you know, this, this, this constant and tiresome accusation of being 258 00:16:09,084 --> 00:16:13,584 aggressive or abrasive or mean for. 259 00:16:14,370 --> 00:16:20,459 Just normal levels of, of clarity of speaking with clarity, folks saying that 260 00:16:20,459 --> 00:16:26,100 they feel afraid of leaders when, you know, all leaders did, was have a normal 261 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:28,590 conversation and state their opinion. 262 00:16:28,980 --> 00:16:33,600 Um, this kind of, uh, stereotype and expectation really, 263 00:16:33,750 --> 00:16:35,699 really, really weathers people. 264 00:16:36,270 --> 00:16:37,350 The, the fourth is this. 265 00:16:38,570 --> 00:16:40,190 Is being given zero margin for error. 266 00:16:40,190 --> 00:16:43,790 And we all saw this happen with Claudine Gay at Harvard. 267 00:16:43,850 --> 00:16:46,190 You know, the ear error does not need to be real. 268 00:16:46,190 --> 00:16:47,570 It can just be perceived. 269 00:16:48,110 --> 00:16:51,170 And then the last is when you're attacked, you're abandoned. 270 00:16:51,710 --> 00:16:55,580 And we saw this, for example, with the leaders of the original Women's March. 271 00:16:55,650 --> 00:16:59,430 There were four of them, but only the three who were women of color were singled 272 00:16:59,430 --> 00:17:04,050 out for attack ads from the NRA that incited people to threaten their lives. 273 00:17:04,650 --> 00:17:08,220 And they were also dragged across the internet, behind all these 274 00:17:08,220 --> 00:17:09,810 false accusations and rumors. 275 00:17:10,260 --> 00:17:15,450 And no one would return their calls in movement or, you know, very few people 276 00:17:15,450 --> 00:17:17,069 stepped in there with them to flank them. 277 00:17:17,069 --> 00:17:20,670 People treated them like they were radioactive and just stepped away. 278 00:17:21,385 --> 00:17:25,014 Then a year later, the story broke by the New York Times, that it was Russian 279 00:17:25,014 --> 00:17:30,355 bots that were behind that as an attempt to cleave the women's movement, which 280 00:17:30,355 --> 00:17:35,635 because people abandoned them, they were successful at at in that period of time. 281 00:17:36,055 --> 00:17:42,055 So these are just the top five things that very universally are benching 282 00:17:42,325 --> 00:17:43,710 so many women of color leaders. 283 00:17:44,495 --> 00:17:47,075 And, um, you know, I bring those up because they're universal. 284 00:17:47,075 --> 00:17:49,985 But of course I have a section of the book that's called We Are Not 285 00:17:49,985 --> 00:17:53,645 a Monolith because of course there are ways that people come for the 286 00:17:53,645 --> 00:17:57,365 next of black women leaders that are different than the ways they come for 287 00:17:57,365 --> 00:18:01,895 the next of Asian women, Arab women, Latinas, and so on and so forth. 288 00:18:01,895 --> 00:18:03,695 So, um, that is important too. 289 00:18:03,725 --> 00:18:08,375 But these are the top five that I heard from nearly everyone that I talked to. 290 00:18:08,645 --> 00:18:10,085 This is in Black America. 291 00:18:10,175 --> 00:18:13,055 We'll be back with more of our conversation in a moment. 292 00:18:14,115 --> 00:18:17,685 If you're a podcaster or you wanna learn more about podcasting, then 293 00:18:17,685 --> 00:18:23,625 you are invited to the K-U-T-K-U-T-X Studios Podcast Meetup on Wednesday, 294 00:18:23,625 --> 00:18:27,945 November 5th, from six to 8:00 PM at K UT Public Media Studios. 295 00:18:27,975 --> 00:18:31,245 You'll get a tour of the station and a short presentation about what we're 296 00:18:31,245 --> 00:18:36,405 up to here, but mostly this is about meeting other Austin area podcasters. 297 00:18:36,885 --> 00:18:40,425 There's gonna be free pizza and drinks, and you can RSVP 298 00:18:40,425 --> 00:18:43,035 and find out more@kut.org. 299 00:18:43,125 --> 00:18:44,775 Slash podcast 300 00:18:45,345 --> 00:18:48,154 if you're just joining us, I'm John L. Hanson Jr. And you're listening to 301 00:18:48,154 --> 00:18:53,195 In Black America, from K UT Radio and speaking with Vanessa Daniel, social 302 00:18:53,195 --> 00:18:57,544 justice activist, organized, and author of Un Rigged The Game, how Women of 303 00:18:57,544 --> 00:18:59,824 Color Can Teach Everyone About Winning. 304 00:19:00,544 --> 00:19:05,554 Ms. Daniel, obviously the 40 women that you spoke with for this work was. 305 00:19:06,425 --> 00:19:10,864 During your lifetime and during your generation, are there other women that 306 00:19:10,864 --> 00:19:14,104 you see on the horizon that's gonna pick up that manner than which you 307 00:19:14,104 --> 00:19:16,175 all have carried for such a long time? 308 00:19:17,014 --> 00:19:17,945 Oh, absolutely. 309 00:19:17,945 --> 00:19:18,665 I mean, I think that. 310 00:19:19,624 --> 00:19:24,544 There is a rich legacy, um, that, that my generation, and I'm 47 years old, 311 00:19:24,544 --> 00:19:28,024 we are building on, and I did get to interview some of my movement elders like 312 00:19:28,024 --> 00:19:32,554 Dolores Huerta, who co-founded the Farm Workers Union alongside Cesar Chavez. 313 00:19:32,915 --> 00:19:36,274 You know, I sat down and had conversations with elders like my 314 00:19:36,274 --> 00:19:40,685 mentor, Aisa Douglas and her late great partner, Dr. Bernice Johnson, Reagan. 315 00:19:41,110 --> 00:19:45,159 Who of course, were, um, luminaries as part of the civil rights struggle. 316 00:19:45,699 --> 00:19:48,189 And my generation, I think we have, we have built on that. 317 00:19:48,189 --> 00:19:53,080 So talking to folks like Ashley Woodard Henderson, and, uh, Latasha Brown and 318 00:19:53,409 --> 00:19:57,399 Linda Sarsour, an incredible national leaders, but young ones coming up. 319 00:19:57,610 --> 00:19:59,629 You know, I spoke with, you know. 320 00:20:00,574 --> 00:20:03,814 Grace and Mar Martinez, um, who runs United. 321 00:20:03,814 --> 00:20:07,294 We dream, you know, incredible leader parti and so important 322 00:20:07,594 --> 00:20:10,834 her work, particularly this this moment when immigrant rights 323 00:20:10,834 --> 00:20:12,455 are so heavily under attack. 324 00:20:12,905 --> 00:20:20,344 But I think that there is, we have just in incredible backbone and bravery coming 325 00:20:20,344 --> 00:20:24,514 up from the younger generation as well, that we have seen across the board from 326 00:20:24,665 --> 00:20:26,915 folks who played an instrumental role in. 327 00:20:27,469 --> 00:20:30,799 Organizing the uprisings, following the murder of George Floyd and 328 00:20:30,799 --> 00:20:34,999 Breonna Taylor, to people who have been working on the climate justice 329 00:20:34,999 --> 00:20:40,279 front to folks who are, you know, working to fight for the rights of our 330 00:20:40,279 --> 00:20:42,409 immigrant communities in this moment. 331 00:20:42,409 --> 00:20:44,719 So, yes, absolutely. 332 00:20:44,719 --> 00:20:48,754 It, it, it is a multi-generational reflection in this book on. 333 00:20:49,504 --> 00:20:54,305 On the work and also on, you know, for my generation, how we wanna leave 334 00:20:54,305 --> 00:20:56,705 these positions better and less broken. 335 00:20:57,065 --> 00:21:01,805 For the women of color who are coming up behind us, we want exponentially 336 00:21:01,835 --> 00:21:06,665 less nonsense in their way so that they can actually have a clear 337 00:21:06,665 --> 00:21:11,195 runway from which to take flight and their, in their leadership and. 338 00:21:11,614 --> 00:21:14,165 Uh, support the, the work we're we're gonna do. 339 00:21:14,435 --> 00:21:17,705 I firmly believe that there's not a single major social justice movement in this 340 00:21:17,705 --> 00:21:23,284 country that is going to be able to win at scale without, without getting our. 341 00:21:24,169 --> 00:21:27,620 Our foot off the neck of women of color leaders, we absolutely need 342 00:21:27,620 --> 00:21:31,399 their leadership in order to win at scale in this moment and in the future. 343 00:21:31,399 --> 00:21:36,199 And so this book is not an addendum to the moment, is an imperative to it. 344 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:41,149 And speaking with these, these women, were there any particular thread in 345 00:21:41,149 --> 00:21:47,750 which they articulated that led them to become involved in, in, in, in activism? 346 00:21:48,260 --> 00:21:48,590 Yeah. 347 00:21:48,590 --> 00:21:50,330 I mean, I, I think that. 348 00:21:51,259 --> 00:21:58,399 Every single woman of color in this country shares the experience of battling 349 00:21:58,489 --> 00:22:06,439 this three-headed monster of extractive capitalism and sexism, and racism. 350 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:13,249 And you know, these leaders responded to that experience in their own lives 351 00:22:13,669 --> 00:22:16,879 by deciding to go into movement. 352 00:22:17,449 --> 00:22:22,550 Because, you know, there are people in every population who, you know, really 353 00:22:22,550 --> 00:22:26,540 answer the call to respond to the, the pain and suffering they've experienced and 354 00:22:26,540 --> 00:22:33,139 that they've seen the women in their lives experience by taking action to transform 355 00:22:33,139 --> 00:22:37,100 the world so that other people don't have to experience that to the same degree. 356 00:22:37,610 --> 00:22:42,590 And I think it's incredibly important in this moment we're in, because 357 00:22:42,620 --> 00:22:46,550 what fascism essentially is, is it, is that three-headed monster. 358 00:22:47,149 --> 00:22:50,929 That is the worst of the history of this country on steroids. 359 00:22:50,929 --> 00:22:55,759 And so women of color who have been battling it, you know, for hundreds of 360 00:22:55,759 --> 00:22:59,539 years for our very survival in the United States, actually have something to teach 361 00:22:59,539 --> 00:23:01,879 about America, about, about how to fight. 362 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:09,229 And we can look across and around the globe and see that the path to fascism has 363 00:23:09,229 --> 00:23:15,049 always been paved with the eroded rights of three groups, women, LGBT people. 364 00:23:15,814 --> 00:23:18,245 And oppressed racial and ethnic groups. 365 00:23:18,424 --> 00:23:21,274 And every single woman of color in this country is a member of 366 00:23:21,274 --> 00:23:22,534 at least two of those groups. 367 00:23:22,534 --> 00:23:29,764 And many of us who identify as queer, uh, in movement belong to all three. 368 00:23:30,004 --> 00:23:32,554 And so we are under very few illusions that the way. 369 00:23:33,365 --> 00:23:36,754 Through this moment is by keeping our heads down and following orders. 370 00:23:36,754 --> 00:23:41,675 We are highly motivated to fight and I think that fight is something 371 00:23:41,675 --> 00:23:45,695 that we see in the leaders in this book, and we see it in, you know, 372 00:23:45,695 --> 00:23:46,985 where the backbone is showing up. 373 00:23:46,985 --> 00:23:48,395 Even in the Democratic party. 374 00:23:48,605 --> 00:23:52,264 When we look at a Jasmine Crockett, when we look at an A OC, when we look 375 00:23:52,264 --> 00:23:56,620 at a Barbara Lee, you know, this is the kind of fight that we all need to be. 376 00:23:57,379 --> 00:24:02,480 Inspired by that we all need to relight our torch on daily so that 377 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,070 we can keep that fire in our belly. 378 00:24:04,429 --> 00:24:09,500 To remember to be brave in this moment and to not capitulate, to timidity and 379 00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:14,090 to obeying in advance and to throwing vulnerable communities under the bus. 380 00:24:14,389 --> 00:24:16,879 Um, we can and must meet this moment. 381 00:24:17,780 --> 00:24:23,090 You talk about the silence of dynamic women of color that, uh, leaders face. 382 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:25,490 Why was it important for you to break that silence? 383 00:24:25,894 --> 00:24:32,314 Well, I mean, as our movement ancestor James Baldwin says, you know, nothing 384 00:24:32,314 --> 00:24:34,174 can be changed until it is faced. 385 00:24:34,534 --> 00:24:39,725 Uh, there is a real challenge to talking honestly about the silence 386 00:24:39,725 --> 00:24:44,074 that surrounds the treatment of women of color leaders in our movements 387 00:24:44,134 --> 00:24:45,154 without talking about the silence. 388 00:24:45,574 --> 00:24:46,834 That's, that is. 389 00:24:47,614 --> 00:24:49,504 Core to rape culture in this country. 390 00:24:50,135 --> 00:24:56,735 And we know that we cannot dismantle rape culture without talking about it. 391 00:24:57,124 --> 00:25:00,304 You know, that's why the Me Too movement was so critical to begin 392 00:25:00,304 --> 00:25:07,895 to, to begin to actually confront and, and dismantle that culture and. 393 00:25:08,554 --> 00:25:13,385 When we see leaders like Tarana Burke, who of course coined the phrase Me 394 00:25:13,385 --> 00:25:16,745 Too, and was a catalyst for this work, had been in it for decades. 395 00:25:16,745 --> 00:25:21,034 When we see, you know, public figures like Oprah Winfrey speaking out about 396 00:25:21,304 --> 00:25:26,675 this kind of abuse, that that does start to change, um, change those dynamics. 397 00:25:26,735 --> 00:25:28,054 And by the same token. 398 00:25:28,699 --> 00:25:33,800 You know, this silence where women of color leaders are talking to each other 399 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,189 about these dynamics in the shadows and it's never addressed in the public 400 00:25:37,189 --> 00:25:39,709 square, does not allow for it to change. 401 00:25:40,010 --> 00:25:43,790 And we need people who are not us to actually unr the game. 402 00:25:44,300 --> 00:25:49,970 You know, I share in the book a story, I've two daughters, but my 13-year-old, 403 00:25:49,970 --> 00:25:53,149 I was at one of her swim meets, and there was another mother who had fallen 404 00:25:53,149 --> 00:25:55,909 asleep in this holding chair and she. 405 00:25:56,449 --> 00:26:00,020 She was so exhausted, clearly she'd fall asleep, head back, mouth open, and 406 00:26:00,020 --> 00:26:04,340 she had a book across her chest that said what to do when he won't change. 407 00:26:05,419 --> 00:26:08,084 And you know, my point by sharing that story is that, you know. 408 00:26:08,824 --> 00:26:12,395 The, the notion that, that the people who exhaust women of color movement 409 00:26:12,395 --> 00:26:15,245 leaders should be allowed not to change while we just study up on how 410 00:26:15,245 --> 00:26:19,145 to become better Jedi and navigating all this stuff is ridiculous. 411 00:26:19,235 --> 00:26:21,004 So we have to break the silence. 412 00:26:21,215 --> 00:26:22,865 We have to start talking about it. 413 00:26:23,044 --> 00:26:26,885 We have to stop allowing it to be normalized so that it 414 00:26:26,885 --> 00:26:28,205 can actually start to change. 415 00:26:28,264 --> 00:26:34,145 And we have to ask people to get in there with us and to stop being bystanders too. 416 00:26:34,409 --> 00:26:38,370 The attacks that occur, uh, on women of color leaders, 417 00:26:38,549 --> 00:26:45,569 how can average Americans support your endeavor and other women of color leaders? 418 00:26:45,959 --> 00:26:50,249 Well, I think each and every person in this country, um, has an opportunity to 419 00:26:50,249 --> 00:26:56,249 get involved in grassroots organizing for, for systems change in their. 420 00:26:56,899 --> 00:26:59,330 Uh, neighborhood and in their city where they live. 421 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,169 Um, if they wanna connect in with national efforts, I would encourage people to look 422 00:27:03,169 --> 00:27:07,490 up the Working Families Party, you know, to look up organizations like Black Voters 423 00:27:07,490 --> 00:27:09,860 Matter, get engaged and get involved. 424 00:27:10,159 --> 00:27:12,169 And then when you're in these spaces. 425 00:27:12,459 --> 00:27:17,799 Look for and support women of color leaders who are really doing the work and 426 00:27:17,799 --> 00:27:19,539 who are truly accountable to communities. 427 00:27:19,959 --> 00:27:23,289 Now, just like all of our skin folks aren't our kin folks, um, 428 00:27:23,289 --> 00:27:27,789 not every woman of color leader is necessarily embodying the superpowers 429 00:27:27,789 --> 00:27:29,079 that I talk about in this book. 430 00:27:29,409 --> 00:27:33,489 So it's not about essentializing people, um, because Candace Owens 431 00:27:33,489 --> 00:27:38,139 and Nikki Haley, and so we know that, that not everybody is doing the work. 432 00:27:38,349 --> 00:27:39,669 But for the folks who are. 433 00:27:40,254 --> 00:27:41,394 We wanna have their back. 434 00:27:41,424 --> 00:27:45,294 And this book has a ton of concrete ways to do that, and I wanna encourage 435 00:27:45,294 --> 00:27:49,884 folks to do that because their freedom is about the liberation of all of us. 436 00:27:50,004 --> 00:27:54,384 And folks can find out more about the book and about the conversation on 437 00:27:54,384 --> 00:27:56,754 my website, vanessa pier daniel.com. 438 00:27:57,205 --> 00:28:02,064 Um, I'm also on, you know, all the socials, Vanessa, Priya, Daniel, uh, um, 439 00:28:02,064 --> 00:28:04,554 under that same, under that same name. 440 00:28:04,554 --> 00:28:06,924 So look forward to being in conversation with folks. 441 00:28:07,699 --> 00:28:10,730 Yeah, there are many, many ways to, to get involved and be in 442 00:28:10,730 --> 00:28:11,659 solidarity with each other. 443 00:28:11,659 --> 00:28:14,030 In this moment, divide and conquer is how they win. 444 00:28:14,179 --> 00:28:16,669 Solidarity is our only path through this. 445 00:28:16,939 --> 00:28:20,300 One final question, Ms. Daniel, you are on tour or just got off tour. 446 00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:23,179 How has it been and and what has been the response thus far? 447 00:28:23,449 --> 00:28:24,919 Uh, the response has been overwhelming. 448 00:28:24,919 --> 00:28:26,675 I just completed a 10 city tour. 449 00:28:26,675 --> 00:28:29,179 We were sold out in more than half of the cities. 450 00:28:29,659 --> 00:28:32,810 Um, people are so hungry to have this conversation. 451 00:28:33,229 --> 00:28:37,790 And you know, and I think just excited to be in community with one another. 452 00:28:37,790 --> 00:28:39,770 We need each other in these times. 453 00:28:39,979 --> 00:28:44,239 Vanessa Daniel, social justice activist and organizer and author of 454 00:28:44,239 --> 00:28:48,169 Unrig The Game, What Women of Color can Teach Everyone about Winning. 455 00:28:48,679 --> 00:28:51,620 If you have questions, comments, or suggestions as the future 456 00:28:51,649 --> 00:28:52,939 in Black America program. 457 00:28:53,389 --> 00:28:56,959 Email us at in Black america@kut.org. 458 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,770 Also, let us know what radio station your heard is over. 459 00:29:01,100 --> 00:29:06,560 Don't forget, subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook and X. You can 460 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,530 hear previous programs online@kut.org. 461 00:29:10,729 --> 00:29:15,050 Also, you can listen to a special collection of In Black America programs at 462 00:29:15,050 --> 00:29:17,330 American Archive of Public Broadcasting. 463 00:29:17,629 --> 00:29:20,060 That's American archives.org. 464 00:29:20,584 --> 00:29:24,304 The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessary 465 00:29:24,304 --> 00:29:28,204 though of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. 466 00:29:28,534 --> 00:29:32,884 Until we have the opportunity again for Texaco producer David Alvarez. 467 00:29:33,184 --> 00:29:36,634 I'm John L. Hanson, Jr. Thank you for joining us today. 468 00:29:36,664 --> 00:29:38,674 Please join us again next week. 469 00:29:38,764 --> 00:29:42,514 Cd copies of this program are available and may be purchased 470 00:29:42,514 --> 00:29:44,584 by writing in Black America. 471 00:29:44,584 --> 00:29:49,354 CDs, KUT Radio 300 West Dean Keaton Boulevard. 472 00:29:49,645 --> 00:29:52,524 Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2. 473 00:29:53,125 --> 00:29:54,565 That's in Black America. 474 00:29:54,565 --> 00:30:02,304 CDs, KUT Radio 300 West Dean Keaton Boulevard, Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2. 475 00:30:04,165 --> 00:30:06,985 This has been a production of KUT Radio 476 00:30:08,304 --> 00:30:12,625 In Black America and KUT Public Radio are members of the NPR network. 477 00:30:12,875 --> 00:30:15,725 It's an independent coalition of public media podcasters. 478 00:30:16,324 --> 00:30:19,755 You can find more shows on the network wherever you get your podcasts. 479 00:30:19,995 --> 00:30:23,105 I'm John L. Hanson, Jr. See you tomorrow.