1 00:00:01,830 --> 00:00:05,820 I'm Elizabeth McQueen and I'm Miles Bloxson, and this is Paul's play 2 00:00:05,940 --> 00:00:09,630 the podcast about live music, why it matters and what comes next. 3 00:00:16,110 --> 00:00:19,860 In the last episode, we talked about all the things that musicians have to 4 00:00:19,860 --> 00:00:22,020 do to stay afloat in this town, but 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,080 we didn't talk about how people promote all the things that they 6 00:00:25,080 --> 00:00:26,610 do to keep that money coming in. 7 00:00:26,910 --> 00:00:28,710 And one of the main tools, musicians. 8 00:00:28,795 --> 00:00:30,385 Use is social media. 9 00:00:30,745 --> 00:00:31,075 Some 10 00:00:31,075 --> 00:00:33,115 people love it and some people hate it. 11 00:00:33,565 --> 00:00:37,885 So we talked to a few musicians to see if social media is still a 12 00:00:37,885 --> 00:00:39,685 must have in the world of music, 13 00:00:40,195 --> 00:00:43,345 and some of their answers, well, they might surprise you. 14 00:00:43,975 --> 00:00:45,440 Let's kick things off with two music. 15 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,290 Who don't just post, they study the game. 16 00:00:48,470 --> 00:00:48,949 The hiphop 17 00:00:48,949 --> 00:00:51,890 duo, who you might have heard in our last episode, really 18 00:00:51,890 --> 00:00:53,780 make social media look easy. 19 00:00:54,199 --> 00:00:57,290 They've put in the time, done the homework, and figured out 20 00:00:57,290 --> 00:00:58,970 how to make it work for them. 21 00:00:59,569 --> 00:01:00,589 Tribe Mafia. 22 00:01:01,099 --> 00:01:06,800 Jana Broxton, I'm an artist, uh, sound engineer, temporary videographer, while 23 00:01:06,890 --> 00:01:08,300 our creative director is not in town. 24 00:01:08,390 --> 00:01:09,020 I'm the other half 25 00:01:09,020 --> 00:01:12,110 of Tri Mafia, Carlos Deshaun Daniels Moore. 26 00:01:12,750 --> 00:01:13,530 And I'm a artist too. 27 00:01:13,890 --> 00:01:17,820 Tribe Mafia has over 107,000 followers on Instagram. 28 00:01:18,179 --> 00:01:21,600 I've even gone to Chinasa for help on getting my own Instagram 29 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,280 engagement up for my personal page. 30 00:01:23,490 --> 00:01:27,210 So when I asked them how they felt about social media and whether 31 00:01:27,210 --> 00:01:30,570 it was still an effective tool, I was surprised by their answer. 32 00:01:30,574 --> 00:01:30,695 Yeah, 33 00:01:30,750 --> 00:01:32,460 it just, it just keeps on changing. 34 00:01:32,460 --> 00:01:35,699 So at this point, nobody knows what they doing. 35 00:01:36,149 --> 00:01:39,750 I can't, I used to have all the, all the ideas I used to write. 36 00:01:39,780 --> 00:01:41,340 He used to send me all these reels. 37 00:01:41,340 --> 00:01:41,910 He still do. 38 00:01:42,270 --> 00:01:45,540 Like of ideas that we could try out, like let's try this, let's try this, try this. 39 00:01:45,900 --> 00:01:47,790 And that's at the, we're at the point where we just trying 40 00:01:47,790 --> 00:01:48,720 things we don't even know. 41 00:01:48,780 --> 00:01:50,039 We just throwing things to see what stick. 42 00:01:50,039 --> 00:01:50,460 I don't know. 43 00:01:50,460 --> 00:01:51,300 It is, it's 44 00:01:51,300 --> 00:01:51,960 ever changing. 45 00:01:52,110 --> 00:01:52,950 Everything's different now. 46 00:01:53,340 --> 00:01:56,940 One thing that they have learned is that you have to put a lot of time in a 47 00:01:56,940 --> 00:01:59,610 social media if you want good results. 48 00:01:59,610 --> 00:02:00,210 Of course, 49 00:02:00,630 --> 00:02:03,720 I was telling Carlos, I was like, I was like, we gotta post probably three times 50 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,005 a day, five times if you want to be. 51 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:06,300 Own it. 52 00:02:06,870 --> 00:02:09,330 I was like, 'cause if you only post it one time a day, it's your 53 00:02:09,330 --> 00:02:14,430 Instagram automatically doesn't wanna show it to none of your followers. 54 00:02:14,670 --> 00:02:16,920 We have 107,000 followers. 55 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,700 I don't even know if it's that, if our stuff is being shown to 10% of it. 56 00:02:20,940 --> 00:02:21,090 Yeah. 57 00:02:21,090 --> 00:02:23,040 Or 5% of it because we're not posting enough. 58 00:02:23,610 --> 00:02:26,370 So I was telling Carlos, I was like, we gotta post at least five times a day. 59 00:02:26,370 --> 00:02:27,270 He was like, I'm not doing that. 60 00:02:27,270 --> 00:02:27,900 That's spammy. 61 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,150 I was like, yeah, I don't, I don't wanna do that either. 62 00:02:30,150 --> 00:02:30,450 But if. 63 00:02:31,515 --> 00:02:34,965 If our stuff is only being shown to like 10 folks or a hundred folks and 64 00:02:34,965 --> 00:02:38,234 we have a hundred thousand followers, that means we're not doing our job. 65 00:02:38,745 --> 00:02:43,275 Even though they do post a lot, they feel like it doesn't always necessarily work. 66 00:02:43,695 --> 00:02:46,019 So they've been using the old fashioned approach. 67 00:02:47,460 --> 00:02:48,900 You gotta interact with them almost 68 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:49,200 every damn day. 69 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:49,260 Yeah. 70 00:02:49,260 --> 00:02:51,960 That's why we're always like in somebody's damns under, or the inbox. 71 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:53,850 You gotta, you gotta be a bug. 72 00:02:53,850 --> 00:02:55,830 You gotta actually get into somebody's inbox and say, Hey, 73 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:57,300 could you like my profile? 74 00:02:57,330 --> 00:02:58,350 Or could you like my comment? 75 00:02:58,350 --> 00:02:58,950 I've gotten one 76 00:02:58,950 --> 00:03:00,575 of those messages before I know. 77 00:03:00,595 --> 00:03:02,160 And I just like, double tap, get off. 78 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,310 We apologize this, but, but that's good though. 79 00:03:05,310 --> 00:03:09,360 'cause it makes me feel like, as another user, like, well, good and bad. 80 00:03:09,385 --> 00:03:13,225 Good meaning like as another don't user that doesn't really use it as much. 81 00:03:13,225 --> 00:03:14,845 I'm like, dang, they're always on it. 82 00:03:14,845 --> 00:03:14,905 Yeah. 83 00:03:14,905 --> 00:03:17,635 And then the other part of me is like, that's great that they're 84 00:03:17,635 --> 00:03:20,965 always on it because like that's what y'all supposed to do for your stuff. 85 00:03:21,024 --> 00:03:21,295 Yeah. 86 00:03:21,295 --> 00:03:22,045 It just sucks. 87 00:03:22,195 --> 00:03:22,495 Yeah. 88 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:24,295 I, I like it, but at the same time it's just like, dang, I 89 00:03:24,295 --> 00:03:25,375 don't want to bug this person. 90 00:03:25,495 --> 00:03:27,535 Like, what if I got another one I gotta send out to them? 91 00:03:28,489 --> 00:03:29,190 And we do. 92 00:03:29,649 --> 00:03:30,265 It was just like. 93 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,870 It's like, dang, I don't wanna send them another one. 94 00:03:33,710 --> 00:03:35,900 But then after that I'm just like, oh, well I'm gonna send it again. 95 00:03:36,020 --> 00:03:38,240 I don't care if they ignore it, they ignore it. 96 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,940 And if they don't, cool, you know, some people are really 97 00:03:40,940 --> 00:03:42,140 going to support you and do it. 98 00:03:42,530 --> 00:03:46,010 And they've realized everyone is not going to participate. 99 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:47,450 You know, they don't have to do that. 100 00:03:47,450 --> 00:03:49,130 They don't have to comment, they don't have to do anything. 101 00:03:49,460 --> 00:03:52,070 And if they do, do it perfect and if they don't, like, don't 102 00:03:52,070 --> 00:03:53,120 feel bad about it because like. 103 00:03:53,445 --> 00:03:54,345 Maybe they're too busy. 104 00:03:54,855 --> 00:03:58,305 And I used to, like, I used to take, I used to take things like the wrong 105 00:03:58,305 --> 00:04:01,155 way, but I used to be like, dang, I probably bugged them too much. 106 00:04:01,155 --> 00:04:03,825 Like, you know, it's, I don't wanna, especially if it was like, 107 00:04:03,825 --> 00:04:04,965 if it was like another artist. 108 00:04:05,055 --> 00:04:05,175 Yeah. 109 00:04:05,175 --> 00:04:08,295 Like, you don't wanna make them feel bad about not doing enough either. 110 00:04:08,955 --> 00:04:10,695 And I used to be like, okay, hey, we got new placement. 111 00:04:10,695 --> 00:04:11,835 Could you, could you go check this out? 112 00:04:12,584 --> 00:04:15,435 And I don't want another artist to feel like, oh man, I ain't doing enough. 113 00:04:15,435 --> 00:04:17,175 I ain't finna go comment on that person's stuff. 114 00:04:17,354 --> 00:04:17,805 For what? 115 00:04:17,805 --> 00:04:19,904 So they can give more placements and get more attention. 116 00:04:20,505 --> 00:04:21,495 And I, I see that. 117 00:04:21,524 --> 00:04:23,385 'cause I play those scenarios in my head and I'm like, oh 118 00:04:23,655 --> 00:04:24,435 yeah, I don't wanna do that. 119 00:04:24,435 --> 00:04:26,385 Maybe we don't send these out to artists anymore. 120 00:04:27,630 --> 00:04:29,730 And we just find out the people that we can send it to. 121 00:04:29,730 --> 00:04:32,160 But now I'm just at the points where it's just like, you know, I send it 122 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,470 to whoever I send it to, and if they want to interact with it, perfect. 123 00:04:34,470 --> 00:04:35,130 And if they don't, 124 00:04:35,610 --> 00:04:36,060 that's okay. 125 00:04:36,330 --> 00:04:40,140 And they continue to use social media every day because that's 126 00:04:40,140 --> 00:04:41,790 how they get more opportunities. 127 00:04:42,030 --> 00:04:42,270 Yeah. 128 00:04:42,270 --> 00:04:44,430 To, because that's, that's literally how we find like more 129 00:04:44,430 --> 00:04:46,290 people to interact with placements. 130 00:04:46,710 --> 00:04:48,990 And that's how we, you know, just keep building and growing. 131 00:04:49,140 --> 00:04:52,020 You never know who you're gonna run or talk to. 132 00:04:52,755 --> 00:04:55,755 They've interacted with people that love what they're doing musically 133 00:04:55,755 --> 00:05:00,555 and visually, and that leads to more collaborations and business opportunities. 134 00:05:00,975 --> 00:05:03,525 But he was like, I liked what you guys are doing, like the music you guys are making. 135 00:05:03,525 --> 00:05:06,585 I want to help you guys do a show that I'm gonna be putting together. 136 00:05:06,615 --> 00:05:07,635 Would you guys like to come on? 137 00:05:07,635 --> 00:05:08,655 I was like, oh yeah, that's it. 138 00:05:09,015 --> 00:05:09,795 I just gotta post more. 139 00:05:10,275 --> 00:05:12,135 And I was like, well, yeah, 140 00:05:12,405 --> 00:05:14,715 but it's not that easy. 141 00:05:14,955 --> 00:05:17,265 I was looking up other videos and they was like, they were saying like, if you don't 142 00:05:17,265 --> 00:05:20,920 post enough content on your videos, yeah, you're gonna get shadow banned apparently. 143 00:05:21,495 --> 00:05:23,505 And if you get shadow banned on Instagram, it's just basically 144 00:05:23,505 --> 00:05:24,495 saying you're in timeout. 145 00:05:24,495 --> 00:05:26,775 They're not gonna show you all of your content to all of your followers. 146 00:05:27,375 --> 00:05:28,905 And I think that's just, that sucks. 147 00:05:29,295 --> 00:05:29,417 That's messed up. 148 00:05:29,417 --> 00:05:31,995 But it's just like, and then if you wanna show your stuff to your 149 00:05:31,995 --> 00:05:34,875 content, to your, to your followers, you gotta pay money for ads. 150 00:05:35,565 --> 00:05:37,605 So it's just like now you gotta pay money just to get your 151 00:05:37,605 --> 00:05:39,105 content shown to the people 152 00:05:39,105 --> 00:05:39,975 that already follow you. 153 00:05:40,035 --> 00:05:40,425 Yeah. 154 00:05:40,455 --> 00:05:41,595 To the people that already follow you. 155 00:05:41,595 --> 00:05:42,135 Exactly. 156 00:05:42,285 --> 00:05:43,155 That's crazy. 157 00:05:43,335 --> 00:05:47,445 See, even they know that it is, it's gonna be a money pin no matter what. 158 00:05:47,445 --> 00:05:50,415 Even if you don't do music, Sage is just doing your podcasting thing. 159 00:05:50,820 --> 00:05:52,860 You still gotta pay for advertisement and all that stuff. 160 00:05:53,310 --> 00:05:53,910 Wait miles, 161 00:05:53,910 --> 00:05:55,920 what is that really a thing? 162 00:05:56,490 --> 00:05:56,910 Yeah. 163 00:05:57,300 --> 00:05:59,130 I totally have experienced this before. 164 00:05:59,340 --> 00:06:02,430 I post on my stories often, but not always on my feed. 165 00:06:02,610 --> 00:06:05,670 And it's interesting what happens when I take a break from either one. 166 00:06:05,910 --> 00:06:08,460 It takes a while for my numbers to ramp back up. 167 00:06:08,570 --> 00:06:10,969 It only happens through consistency. 168 00:06:11,150 --> 00:06:15,980 For example, I might post a story and have about 300 views in 24 hours, and 169 00:06:15,980 --> 00:06:20,270 then I'll wait and not post a story for like a week or so and only get like 70 170 00:06:20,270 --> 00:06:23,150 views, and I have about 5,000 followers. 171 00:06:23,300 --> 00:06:26,270 So I'm always like, what happened to my engagement? 172 00:06:26,539 --> 00:06:27,800 Why has it dropped so much? 173 00:06:28,039 --> 00:06:30,770 But there are things that you can do about this. 174 00:06:31,605 --> 00:06:34,125 They're saying you have to do contents in fives every single day. 175 00:06:34,215 --> 00:06:36,945 The last one could be a video or a photo, but it has to be like in fives. 176 00:06:37,485 --> 00:06:40,155 And then the last one that you do has to be narrating. 177 00:06:40,545 --> 00:06:41,835 Yeah, like a narrating video. 178 00:06:41,925 --> 00:06:44,115 Like you're, it's like behind the scenes, but you're doing like, you're 179 00:06:44,115 --> 00:06:47,865 doing that in like in five pieces every single day, which is crazy. 180 00:06:48,495 --> 00:06:51,315 Like five different pieces of contents of the same thing. 181 00:06:51,315 --> 00:06:51,495 But you 182 00:06:51,495 --> 00:06:53,445 gotta have one photos and you gotta have one. 183 00:06:53,895 --> 00:06:55,425 Content piece that's just photos. 184 00:06:56,085 --> 00:06:57,105 And I think that's crazy. 185 00:06:57,105 --> 00:06:59,415 But that's, that shows it to your actual following though. 186 00:06:59,895 --> 00:07:00,495 And then where did you get 187 00:07:00,495 --> 00:07:01,365 this information from? 188 00:07:01,365 --> 00:07:01,545 You just, 189 00:07:01,785 --> 00:07:03,045 I just see it off of Instagram. 190 00:07:03,165 --> 00:07:03,375 Yeah. 191 00:07:03,375 --> 00:07:05,865 I started following a lot of, it's like a bunch of like content creators that 192 00:07:05,865 --> 00:07:07,635 like gives you like these like advice. 193 00:07:08,025 --> 00:07:10,185 I was like, oh, and I tried it when I post photos. 194 00:07:10,185 --> 00:07:11,895 We did get a lot more attention engaging. 195 00:07:11,895 --> 00:07:15,495 And then when I post, when you post res, those go to your people, the 196 00:07:15,495 --> 00:07:16,695 people that's not following you. 197 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,280 So re's reach are like, it's like outreach and in photos it's like the 198 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,400 people that's already following you, but it might not show you all your 199 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:24,870 stuff if you're not posting constantly. 200 00:07:25,260 --> 00:07:28,350 And then once you stop posting, it resets, you have to start it all over again. 201 00:07:28,860 --> 00:07:31,050 And they agree it's not the best, 202 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,830 it's, it sucks, but it's just like it is what we have to do now until. 203 00:07:35,505 --> 00:07:36,974 I don't know, to one of us go viral. 204 00:07:37,215 --> 00:07:41,025 Chasa admits he doesn't use social media as much as he used to in the 205 00:07:41,025 --> 00:07:43,065 past, unless it's for business. 206 00:07:43,215 --> 00:07:47,565 And Carlos, he uses it a lot, but not for the reason that you might think 207 00:07:47,805 --> 00:07:48,825 I follow a lot of things. 208 00:07:48,825 --> 00:07:50,085 Just informational base. 209 00:07:50,354 --> 00:07:53,745 He be like, where do we find, I like, dude, I had to funnel a lot of just um, 210 00:07:53,745 --> 00:07:55,125 follow a lot of just regular people. 211 00:07:56,085 --> 00:07:59,445 And just literally follow content information pages just 212 00:07:59,445 --> 00:08:00,585 so it could show up on my thing. 213 00:08:00,585 --> 00:08:04,095 I'm like, I come across anything now that I, that would like 214 00:08:04,095 --> 00:08:05,265 deal with it musical wise. 215 00:08:05,505 --> 00:08:06,975 So you're content wise, you're not 216 00:08:06,975 --> 00:08:10,155 even using it really personally, Carlos, you're using it to gain more 217 00:08:10,155 --> 00:08:13,725 knowledge about how to work on this platform and then just life general 218 00:08:13,725 --> 00:08:14,910 knowledge for as being a musician? 219 00:08:14,910 --> 00:08:14,990 Yeah. 220 00:08:14,990 --> 00:08:15,230 The things 221 00:08:15,270 --> 00:08:17,655 I would share would be personal or anything tied to music. 222 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,849 Or just music based on our other page, but like what I use it 223 00:08:20,849 --> 00:08:22,140 for is a whole different thing. 224 00:08:22,140 --> 00:08:22,740 He would show me, like, 225 00:08:22,830 --> 00:08:26,250 if we do like a new song, we gotta show us listening to our songs 226 00:08:26,250 --> 00:08:27,330 instead of just performing it. 227 00:08:27,810 --> 00:08:29,760 'cause a lot of people want to hear your songs the way that you're 228 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,630 hearing it, which is just like, you know, raw and un unfiltered. 229 00:08:34,049 --> 00:08:37,260 They've also invested in a pretty nice camera to make sure that they 230 00:08:37,260 --> 00:08:39,270 get the best content possible. 231 00:08:39,689 --> 00:08:43,500 The reason was, was just convenience and yeah, consistency and, yeah. 232 00:08:44,535 --> 00:08:46,635 It's just how much content we gotta make now. 233 00:08:46,965 --> 00:08:47,445 Exactly. 234 00:08:47,505 --> 00:08:50,205 Because if you gotta push out five, you know, pieces a day, 235 00:08:50,505 --> 00:08:51,585 which we're gonna start doing now. 236 00:08:51,615 --> 00:08:53,655 We just, I just started, I'm still building that camera 237 00:08:53,655 --> 00:08:55,455 rig out right now, but, um. 238 00:08:56,564 --> 00:08:56,895 I don't know. 239 00:08:56,895 --> 00:09:00,915 We just wanna be able to push out as much content as possible and doing that, 240 00:09:00,915 --> 00:09:02,354 that helps you get more connections. 241 00:09:02,834 --> 00:09:06,704 Chasa and Carlos are putting so much time and resources into this 242 00:09:06,704 --> 00:09:11,265 marketing machine that doesn't always necessarily work in their favor. 243 00:09:11,655 --> 00:09:12,974 So I have to know Miles. 244 00:09:13,005 --> 00:09:15,405 How do they feel about social media these days? 245 00:09:15,645 --> 00:09:16,214 Well, 246 00:09:16,305 --> 00:09:20,084 I asked them, how does it make y'all feel when y'all use social media? 247 00:09:20,775 --> 00:09:21,104 I don't know. 248 00:09:21,104 --> 00:09:22,155 It's mixed base now. 249 00:09:22,785 --> 00:09:23,805 It used to be fun back then. 250 00:09:23,954 --> 00:09:24,915 It used to be fun back then. 251 00:09:25,350 --> 00:09:25,770 But 252 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,800 it's like, that feels like a job. 253 00:09:29,010 --> 00:09:29,790 It does feel like a job. 254 00:09:29,790 --> 00:09:31,770 It feels like work, and it feels like a job that doesn't pay. 255 00:09:31,950 --> 00:09:34,555 'cause we're paying because we're paying. 256 00:09:35,250 --> 00:09:35,850 It hurts. 257 00:09:36,060 --> 00:09:36,570 I don't like it. 258 00:09:42,225 --> 00:09:42,515 Stop. 259 00:10:03,089 --> 00:10:05,214 So Chinasa and Carlos use social media. 260 00:10:05,680 --> 00:10:10,839 But they don't necessarily like it, which I feel like is a pretty common experience. 261 00:10:11,229 --> 00:10:14,829 And you know, some people have set boundaries for themselves when it 262 00:10:14,829 --> 00:10:16,604 comes to social media, like Walker. 263 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,500 My name is Walker Lukins. 264 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:22,980 I'm a musician and I have podcasts as well. 265 00:10:23,250 --> 00:10:24,780 Like a lot of other musicians. 266 00:10:24,780 --> 00:10:29,010 Walker uses social media for promoting his music, but for him, 267 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,260 things changed Post pandemic. 268 00:10:31,410 --> 00:10:33,780 I put out a record in 2023, and I just realized, I was like, I 269 00:10:33,780 --> 00:10:35,790 don't have the appetite for this. 270 00:10:36,195 --> 00:10:37,185 Like what's required. 271 00:10:37,185 --> 00:10:38,205 I'm like, I don't really wanna do it. 272 00:10:38,445 --> 00:10:41,805 Many of the artists we talked to said they felt like they had to use 273 00:10:41,805 --> 00:10:43,695 social media to promote themselves. 274 00:10:43,935 --> 00:10:46,215 So there was like that, there's just that kind of fatigue. 275 00:10:46,215 --> 00:10:51,825 And then, and then I was, I toured so much in my band and in someone else's 276 00:10:51,825 --> 00:10:56,595 band, and I just had this, the, the impulse to you're, you're supposed 277 00:10:56,595 --> 00:10:58,305 to share every day what you're doing. 278 00:10:58,815 --> 00:11:01,720 I was like, I don't, I don't want to tell you what I'm doing. 279 00:11:03,075 --> 00:11:05,895 I mean, social media just stopped being fun. 280 00:11:06,255 --> 00:11:09,315 So we are getting sucked into it and they're taking bits of our humanity, 281 00:11:09,315 --> 00:11:13,695 like our human experience and like turning it into addictive behavior. 282 00:11:14,985 --> 00:11:20,895 So it really criticized for any way where I'm like, I don't, I don't get joy from 283 00:11:20,895 --> 00:11:23,055 social media the way that I once did. 284 00:11:23,325 --> 00:11:27,585 He spends between an hour or two on social media a week, sometimes 285 00:11:27,590 --> 00:11:28,590 more if it's work related. 286 00:11:28,965 --> 00:11:30,075 To combat 287 00:11:30,075 --> 00:11:30,735 his use. 288 00:11:30,735 --> 00:11:33,375 Walker has created boundaries with social media. 289 00:11:33,375 --> 00:11:35,505 I turn off location services. 290 00:11:35,565 --> 00:11:38,595 I, I don't get as much like stuff based on where I am. 291 00:11:39,555 --> 00:11:40,755 Uh, it's not fed to me. 292 00:11:41,385 --> 00:11:45,165 I don't ever look at it when I get up. 293 00:11:45,495 --> 00:11:48,195 Like I, I have to spend the first two hours of the day or 294 00:11:48,195 --> 00:11:49,635 if I, I mean I have, so, okay. 295 00:11:49,635 --> 00:11:51,915 So I don't look at it when I get up and I don't look at it before bed. 296 00:11:51,915 --> 00:11:53,475 So there's an hour bumper. 297 00:11:54,420 --> 00:11:56,699 Walker also found another solution, 298 00:11:57,630 --> 00:12:02,430 but part of it is I use this app called One Sec, which all it does is mess with 299 00:12:02,430 --> 00:12:09,090 the notification settings on your phone so that if I want to open any social 300 00:12:09,090 --> 00:12:13,995 media and sometimes I put my email in there, I have to go th I have to like. 301 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:21,120 Turn my phone three times or take it like it Gate keeps your social media from you. 302 00:12:21,750 --> 00:12:24,030 He started using the app two years ago. 303 00:12:24,300 --> 00:12:29,010 I've saved, according to this, in March, 2023, I was trying 304 00:12:29,010 --> 00:12:31,589 to open it 367 times a week. 305 00:12:31,950 --> 00:12:35,340 Now he's tried to open Instagram about a hundred times a week. 306 00:12:35,610 --> 00:12:40,050 Walker also no longer uses Twitter, and he only has used Facebook seven 307 00:12:40,050 --> 00:12:45,030 times Last week, according to the app, he saved 1.7 months of his 308 00:12:45,030 --> 00:12:46,530 life since he's downloaded it. 309 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,770 And you know, miles after the interview I downloaded one 310 00:12:49,770 --> 00:12:52,350 sec. And honestly, I love it. 311 00:12:52,650 --> 00:12:53,250 It just. 312 00:12:53,609 --> 00:12:57,630 Interrupts that thing that we all do where we get bored for like one second 313 00:12:57,869 --> 00:13:02,400 and we open Instagram and in interrupting that, you get a chance to like say, 314 00:13:02,609 --> 00:13:05,400 no, actually I don't wanna do this. 315 00:13:05,609 --> 00:13:06,660 And it totally works. 316 00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:13,319 Like I checked my screen time on my iPhone and I used Instagram 28 minutes last week. 317 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:14,640 Really? 318 00:13:14,699 --> 00:13:15,300 Yes. 319 00:13:15,329 --> 00:13:15,959 I'm impressed. 320 00:13:15,959 --> 00:13:16,829 Elizabeth McQueen. 321 00:13:18,089 --> 00:13:18,630 Me too, 322 00:13:18,870 --> 00:13:23,010 support for pauses play comes from Metropolis Apartments featuring a variety 323 00:13:23,010 --> 00:13:26,970 of floor plans, from efficiency to five bedrooms, as well as a community that 324 00:13:26,970 --> 00:13:29,160 embraces art, music, and creativity. 325 00:13:29,250 --> 00:13:32,069 more@metropolisapartmentsaustin.com. 326 00:13:32,435 --> 00:13:32,915 One 327 00:13:32,915 --> 00:13:36,875 thing that inspired Walker to slow down his social media usage was 328 00:13:36,875 --> 00:13:39,844 reading Stolen Focus by Johann Hari 329 00:13:40,145 --> 00:13:43,474 in that stolen focus book, he, he articulates it really well, right? 330 00:13:43,474 --> 00:13:44,915 He just calls it Deep Focus. 331 00:13:44,944 --> 00:13:48,935 So like all the most meaningful things in life require deep focus, whether that's. 332 00:13:49,319 --> 00:13:53,250 Conversing with someone or in my own life, like really working 333 00:13:53,250 --> 00:13:56,250 on a song with somebody or myself, you're just deeply in it. 334 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,740 Like those, that is where meaning comes from in life. 335 00:13:58,829 --> 00:14:01,980 You're get satisfaction from something like a feed, which 336 00:14:01,980 --> 00:14:03,329 is just really quick content. 337 00:14:04,215 --> 00:14:05,565 Having it broken down that way. 338 00:14:05,565 --> 00:14:10,155 It's like everything I love, everything we all love is the antithesis of this. 339 00:14:10,575 --> 00:14:10,935 Yes. 340 00:14:10,935 --> 00:14:14,685 Sometimes I'm so tired that this feels good, but like this feels good. 341 00:14:14,685 --> 00:14:16,275 Like eating a Star Wars feels good. 342 00:14:16,575 --> 00:14:18,375 It's like you, it feels good for a second. 343 00:14:18,435 --> 00:14:19,785 Like it's your whole life. 344 00:14:20,265 --> 00:14:20,985 It's awful. 345 00:14:21,375 --> 00:14:25,335 So I don't know, I thought that was really powerful and I think when 346 00:14:25,335 --> 00:14:28,230 you are so red pilled on social media and sharing your life on it. 347 00:14:29,474 --> 00:14:31,515 Your everything becomes type two fun. 348 00:14:31,604 --> 00:14:33,314 Like you don't enjoy anything in the moment. 349 00:14:33,314 --> 00:14:35,415 You just enjoy sharing it and watching it back. 350 00:14:35,954 --> 00:14:39,045 Like other artists we spoke with, Walker doesn't think he 351 00:14:39,045 --> 00:14:41,115 can leave social media entirely. 352 00:14:41,775 --> 00:14:44,985 It's hard to imagine leaving it all behind completely. 353 00:14:45,495 --> 00:14:50,895 Like, I love seeing my nieces and nephews, you know, like, that's great. 354 00:14:51,165 --> 00:14:53,925 That's unimpeachably like a good experience, you know? 355 00:14:54,045 --> 00:14:55,185 But uh, 356 00:14:57,255 --> 00:14:57,645 yeah. 357 00:14:57,645 --> 00:14:59,415 Other times it's like, is this really worth it? 358 00:14:59,415 --> 00:14:59,835 I don't know. 359 00:14:59,895 --> 00:15:00,435 Yeah. 360 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,190 Austin musician, Sarah Hauser, who we also talked to in our last episode, 361 00:15:31,460 --> 00:15:36,020 wants to limit her use of social media, but she still uses it to promote things. 362 00:15:36,350 --> 00:15:39,410 Right now I'm really limiting my screen time right now, 363 00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:42,050 so I put my hour time limit. 364 00:15:42,260 --> 00:15:45,950 I will say I hit the remind me in five minutes button a couple times, 365 00:15:45,950 --> 00:15:49,040 so I'm really trying not to be on it for for more than an hour or two. 366 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:55,040 I'm right now also in a unique position where I'm not actively promoting anything. 367 00:15:55,700 --> 00:16:00,080 She feels like social media has had an impact on her, but I definitely see 368 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,180 the way that social media can really. 369 00:16:02,610 --> 00:16:06,240 Eat at my productivity and my desire to write, which is a huge reason 370 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,870 right now why I am like actively kind of disengaging from it. 371 00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:14,640 And she told us some of the ways she thinks social media impacts musicians. 372 00:16:14,910 --> 00:16:16,530 Comparison is the thief of joy. 373 00:16:16,650 --> 00:16:19,021 It's like you can open your Instagram app and see. 374 00:16:19,470 --> 00:16:23,790 I can see within five minutes artists that are doing things that I wish I was doing. 375 00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:26,520 And a lot of that is like, you know, inner work. 376 00:16:26,580 --> 00:16:30,810 I have to, you know, and, but not everybody has access to resources 377 00:16:30,810 --> 00:16:32,670 to help with boundaries like that. 378 00:16:32,670 --> 00:16:37,620 You know, it's taken me a long time to get comfortable and like not feel that 379 00:16:37,620 --> 00:16:40,080 sense of like, oh, I'm not doing enough. 380 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,640 And not just on their mental health, but also on their music. 381 00:16:45,330 --> 00:16:49,140 The focus has become, uh, more on content and less on art. 382 00:16:49,575 --> 00:16:53,955 I think there's limited attention span. 383 00:16:54,135 --> 00:16:55,995 I think very, people are very focused on singles. 384 00:16:55,995 --> 00:16:58,665 People are very focused on the 15 seconds of a song. 385 00:16:58,995 --> 00:17:04,515 People are very focused on getting the viral moment trends, writing to a trend. 386 00:17:04,725 --> 00:17:06,194 I find all of that stuff very off-put. 387 00:17:06,525 --> 00:17:07,395 I find. 388 00:17:07,784 --> 00:17:14,800 The like needing to put the same 15 seconds clip of a song on TikTok or 389 00:17:14,804 --> 00:17:18,435 Instagram four times a day in order to get the algorithm to do what it's like. 390 00:17:18,494 --> 00:17:20,324 Like I'm not gonna go listen to that song. 391 00:17:20,774 --> 00:17:25,724 Sarah is working on her own journey to get in touch with the art, not the content. 392 00:17:26,565 --> 00:17:31,215 I think also, you know, I was mentioning, I'm kind of reading or in the middle 393 00:17:31,215 --> 00:17:35,745 of the artist's way, and one of the chapters talks about output and input. 394 00:17:36,285 --> 00:17:40,785 And there's also a really great Saul Williams quote about how your diet isn't 395 00:17:40,785 --> 00:17:45,135 just your food and like what you ingest and like mindful consumption, right? 396 00:17:45,165 --> 00:17:49,035 So like what you consume is going to affect what kind of 397 00:17:49,035 --> 00:17:50,475 art you put out into the world. 398 00:17:50,475 --> 00:17:54,585 And I think right now I am really, really protective. 399 00:17:54,840 --> 00:18:02,820 Of my input because I care and I'm deeply invested in my output, and I 400 00:18:02,820 --> 00:18:11,550 know that if I am doom scrolling for four hours, that's not gonna give me. 401 00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:13,710 The stimulus. 402 00:18:13,710 --> 00:18:16,290 I need to write the way that I wanna write. 403 00:18:16,740 --> 00:18:20,340 I need to be reading, I need to be touching grass, I need to be swimming. 404 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,140 I need to be clearing my head. 405 00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:26,820 And, and also like, I really need to feel emotionally safe. 406 00:18:26,850 --> 00:18:29,940 And social media is like not always a safe space. 407 00:18:29,940 --> 00:18:31,110 You don't have a filter. 408 00:18:31,110 --> 00:18:33,570 I don't have control what I'm seeing when I'm scrolling. 409 00:18:34,050 --> 00:18:36,090 I'm just kind of like inundating my brain. 410 00:18:36,090 --> 00:18:41,160 So, um, so yeah, it, it definitely, I think of it as an input output. 411 00:18:41,835 --> 00:18:44,325 She's really noticed a change from when she was younger. 412 00:18:45,165 --> 00:18:48,405 I, I would not be the musician and the writer I am today had I 413 00:18:48,405 --> 00:18:50,745 had social media when I was 15. 414 00:18:50,835 --> 00:18:54,195 I mean, when I was, I started writing music when I was 14. 415 00:18:54,825 --> 00:18:57,916 I didn't have cable internet until I was like. 416 00:18:58,665 --> 00:19:02,895 We were like, my dad didn't get cable until I, like, absolutely needed it 417 00:19:02,895 --> 00:19:04,275 for school or something like that. 418 00:19:04,275 --> 00:19:11,235 So like, I was not on the internet very often, but, um, but yeah, I mean, I was, 419 00:19:11,295 --> 00:19:16,755 yeah, I was, I had limited distractions and so I came home from school and I 420 00:19:16,755 --> 00:19:18,915 wanted to play piano for four hours. 421 00:19:18,975 --> 00:19:22,665 Like my parents would kick me off the piano to, you know, so they 422 00:19:22,665 --> 00:19:23,925 could watch the news or whatever. 423 00:19:24,495 --> 00:19:24,855 Um. 424 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:29,129 If anything was a distraction from the schoolwork I needed to get done, 425 00:19:29,189 --> 00:19:32,219 you know, so it's a different time. 426 00:19:32,219 --> 00:19:36,120 I mean, I'm obviously like learning and working as like a 38-year-old versus 427 00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:38,820 when you're like 15 and you don't have to hold a job and you have a place to 428 00:19:38,820 --> 00:19:40,740 live, and all that kinda stuff is very 429 00:19:40,740 --> 00:19:41,280 different. 430 00:19:41,729 --> 00:19:45,870 And she's noticed how social media is impacting younger musicians. 431 00:19:46,379 --> 00:19:50,100 I see it with my students at a CC all the time too, where it's like. 432 00:19:50,325 --> 00:19:56,805 Uh, this, it's a real, a real, um, paralyzing fear, and it's keeping them 433 00:19:56,805 --> 00:20:00,795 from writing, like, keeping them from doing the thing that like they're chasing. 434 00:20:01,185 --> 00:20:04,515 However, Sarah does see some benefits of social media. 435 00:20:05,115 --> 00:20:09,135 Millennials were quick to embrace the positives of the internet. 436 00:20:09,314 --> 00:20:12,195 I mean, I think we were the first ones to really learn social 437 00:20:12,195 --> 00:20:19,064 networking and how to use it, uh, to meet people, stay connected. 438 00:20:19,095 --> 00:20:21,825 I've moved to four different states over the course of my life. 439 00:20:21,825 --> 00:20:22,274 It's great. 440 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,570 To be able to see what my friends back home in Florida and South Carolina 441 00:20:26,570 --> 00:20:30,920 and Boston and stuff like, what were are doing and you know, like, 442 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:32,450 I think that that's really great. 443 00:20:32,450 --> 00:20:37,490 It's also great, um, in that it lets you tap into a global community 444 00:20:37,490 --> 00:20:42,620 that you otherwise wouldn't have access to without heavily touring. 445 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,085 And even with that, you know, it's like, um. 446 00:20:46,965 --> 00:20:50,445 You know, I, I think that kind of couples with streaming obviously, but I think 447 00:20:50,445 --> 00:20:55,785 the perk is, is that it, it gives you a chance to put art out without having to 448 00:20:55,785 --> 00:20:58,515 physically travel, you know, anywhere. 449 00:20:58,695 --> 00:21:03,525 So I, I would say like the interpersonal, like kind of social social connectivity. 450 00:21:03,795 --> 00:21:06,765 And then global community access to information. 451 00:21:06,765 --> 00:21:09,375 Obviously we've seen the, there's a downside to that too. 452 00:21:09,615 --> 00:21:13,275 I feel like at this point, I, I have worked really hard to like, make a 453 00:21:13,275 --> 00:21:15,645 lot of boundaries with myself with it. 454 00:21:15,705 --> 00:21:20,985 Um, but, uh, for the most part, when I, you know, when 455 00:21:20,985 --> 00:21:22,635 I, it feels good to be liked. 456 00:21:22,665 --> 00:21:24,585 I mean, it's, I think that's. 457 00:21:24,935 --> 00:21:30,514 You know, all us artists are somewhat broken people deep down, and we wanna 458 00:21:30,514 --> 00:21:34,955 be loved and seen, uh, and for the work we're doing and all that kinda stuff. 459 00:21:34,955 --> 00:21:38,254 And so, yeah, getting, getting likes, getting shares and all 460 00:21:38,254 --> 00:21:40,264 that stuff, uh, feels really good. 461 00:21:40,774 --> 00:21:46,595 Um, on the other side of it, it can, uh, feel like, you know, you're 462 00:21:46,595 --> 00:21:50,975 screaming into the void sometimes because there's a lot of people doing 463 00:21:50,975 --> 00:21:53,290 the same thing out there for now. 464 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,530 She won't step away, but she reminds herself. 465 00:21:57,010 --> 00:21:59,020 It is a tool that works for me. 466 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:00,250 I don't work for it. 467 00:22:01,675 --> 00:22:01,895 How 468 00:22:13,495 --> 00:22:13,615 I. 469 00:22:27,010 --> 00:22:31,810 Some musicians have decided to leave social media altogether, like Robert. 470 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,410 Uh, I'm Robert Ellis and I'm a musician. 471 00:22:36,010 --> 00:22:37,060 Among other things, 472 00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:39,280 we got right into it. 473 00:22:39,340 --> 00:22:43,030 We wanted to know why did he decide to leave the virtual world. 474 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,730 The short answer to your question is what made me wanna leave 475 00:22:45,730 --> 00:22:49,870 social media like it is purely. 476 00:22:50,294 --> 00:22:55,635 A personal decision, you know, like my experience as a user was really kind of 477 00:22:55,635 --> 00:22:59,774 the driving factor in, in my decision to just completely pull the plug. 478 00:22:59,835 --> 00:23:05,655 And then the main reason that I, that I just finally quit and you 479 00:23:05,655 --> 00:23:09,254 know, just decided to completely get off was just 'cause I don't like 480 00:23:09,254 --> 00:23:10,544 the way I feel when I'm using it. 481 00:23:11,115 --> 00:23:15,585 Robert didn't just leave, he wrote a goodbye post and when he did that, he 482 00:23:15,585 --> 00:23:18,345 deleted his entire social media history. 483 00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:24,510 I just, I wanted some accountability and, you know, with, with a, a post 484 00:23:24,510 --> 00:23:28,980 like the one I made, uh, I think it would look quite silly for me to 485 00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:33,570 say, jump back on tomorrow and start making like, Hey, here I am guys. 486 00:23:33,630 --> 00:23:35,640 Um, making posts again. 487 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:41,520 So I personally just, I stopped really believing all of the things that people 488 00:23:41,580 --> 00:23:44,640 say about social media in regards to, um. 489 00:23:45,044 --> 00:23:47,925 You know, how I could benefit a musician. 490 00:23:48,165 --> 00:23:54,405 Um, and I, I guess just making that post, it was like, this is gonna force 491 00:23:54,405 --> 00:23:59,325 me to actually be done with this and, and not have the option to go back, 492 00:23:59,534 --> 00:24:00,945 uh, without looking quite silly. 493 00:24:00,945 --> 00:24:01,304 So, 494 00:24:01,784 --> 00:24:05,085 so the post was kind of like you're accountability partner in a way? 495 00:24:05,504 --> 00:24:05,925 Yeah. 496 00:24:05,925 --> 00:24:09,405 I mean, I don't know that if I had just decided to like. 497 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,610 Take a break from it and say, delete it off my phone or whatever. 498 00:24:14,610 --> 00:24:19,800 I, I just don't know that it would have the same sort of cleansing 499 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:26,100 feeling that it did by, I mean, literally, I, I signed out, I. 500 00:24:26,445 --> 00:24:30,764 Changed my password to one of those strong passwords that is 501 00:24:30,764 --> 00:24:34,754 like a bunch of random characters, and then I deleted that password. 502 00:24:34,754 --> 00:24:38,985 So I don't actually know how to get back into the account if I had wanted to. 503 00:24:39,315 --> 00:24:43,665 So I'm curious for you, did you ever set a timer on your phone or anything like that 504 00:24:43,665 --> 00:24:45,615 before you decided to completely leave? 505 00:24:45,940 --> 00:24:49,660 For an addicted person, that timer is like child's play. 506 00:24:49,780 --> 00:24:53,470 It's like, oh, you, you've used your, your 10 minutes today. 507 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:59,290 All you have to do is hit like, ignore, and then like the desire to open the 508 00:24:59,290 --> 00:25:04,740 app and look at it, I found to be, I. Just, just so compelling, and this is, 509 00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:10,050 as someone who like consciously would, would say like, I don't like this. 510 00:25:10,050 --> 00:25:12,450 I don't, I don't like the way it makes me feel. 511 00:25:12,780 --> 00:25:13,950 I don't like being on it. 512 00:25:13,980 --> 00:25:14,490 You know? 513 00:25:14,490 --> 00:25:19,470 And, and still I would find myself full, fully knowing that it's not 514 00:25:19,470 --> 00:25:23,640 something that I wanted in my life, but just compulsively opening it. 515 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:29,910 And like, I don't, I, there's definitely a component of this that is like, um. 516 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:35,730 Has to do with meditation and trying to generally be more present in my 517 00:25:35,730 --> 00:25:38,280 life without getting too woo woo. 518 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:43,740 I'm, I'm really into, uh, in the last couple years, especially like meditating, 519 00:25:44,130 --> 00:25:50,250 uh, at least twice a day and just, you know, trying to be more aware of 520 00:25:50,250 --> 00:25:53,430 what my mind is like at a given time. 521 00:25:53,970 --> 00:25:55,020 And I, I mean. 522 00:25:55,575 --> 00:25:57,705 I really found in the morning. 523 00:25:57,705 --> 00:26:01,335 I wake up pretty early and I have coffee and do like a morning 524 00:26:01,335 --> 00:26:06,225 meditation, and I just noticed a real difference when I would sit. 525 00:26:06,975 --> 00:26:10,395 If the first thing I did when I opened my eyes was check my phone, 526 00:26:10,395 --> 00:26:14,805 whether it be email or Instagram, or even just text messages. 527 00:26:15,015 --> 00:26:21,435 If I sort of like opened the gates to that, to that stream and then got up 528 00:26:21,435 --> 00:26:25,755 and had coffee and sat down to try to meditate, I just, I feel like my mind 529 00:26:26,235 --> 00:26:31,755 was in a noticeably different place and just feels much more scattered. 530 00:26:32,399 --> 00:26:35,939 When you're, when you're closely watching the state of your mind, 531 00:26:35,939 --> 00:26:39,990 I feel like the effect of the phone is extremely pronounced, 532 00:26:40,620 --> 00:26:41,189 right? 533 00:26:41,189 --> 00:26:43,500 Because you're being the observer of your mind. 534 00:26:43,949 --> 00:26:44,610 You know? 535 00:26:44,639 --> 00:26:44,760 Yeah. 536 00:26:44,850 --> 00:26:47,010 And you can actually see the thoughts that are coming through. 537 00:26:47,010 --> 00:26:51,389 And then on top of that, when you open up an app or when you open up Instagram, for 538 00:26:51,389 --> 00:26:55,770 example, now you're subjected directly to whatever you're viewing at the moment. 539 00:26:55,770 --> 00:26:59,100 Like you didn't even get a chance to think when you woke up, you quickly 540 00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:02,100 got on the app and now whatever's on the app is what you're thinking about. 541 00:27:03,405 --> 00:27:03,695 Yeah. 542 00:27:05,004 --> 00:27:05,970 I mean, I, uh. 543 00:27:06,075 --> 00:27:09,885 I don't know why, but like in a day is half asleep. 544 00:27:10,005 --> 00:27:13,695 That is often my first instinct is to like, look at my phone. 545 00:27:14,595 --> 00:27:16,785 You know, like how, how fucked up is that? 546 00:27:16,845 --> 00:27:18,075 It's the availability. 547 00:27:18,075 --> 00:27:20,955 It's like knowing that it's there and you could be. 548 00:27:21,630 --> 00:27:24,360 Doing it, you know, you could be engaging with it. 549 00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:30,150 Like it's, it's just an extra layer of like, um, I mean really like desire 550 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:35,850 or aversion, like the two things that you, that you really think about a lot. 551 00:27:35,940 --> 00:27:40,350 Uh, if you have like a Buddhist practice, it's like desire and aversion. 552 00:27:40,350 --> 00:27:44,645 And these, these phones are like little desire and aversion machines. 553 00:27:45,375 --> 00:27:49,215 It sounds like leaving social media is part of like a bigger kind of project 554 00:27:49,215 --> 00:27:53,895 for you of becoming more present and, you know, becoming more connected 555 00:27:53,895 --> 00:27:55,845 with your life and, and what you do. 556 00:27:56,745 --> 00:27:59,085 Social media just like kind of takes away from presence. 557 00:27:59,085 --> 00:28:03,015 But you also talked about a little bit and you, and you kind of referenced in your 558 00:28:03,015 --> 00:28:10,215 post that the way that you felt when you were actually on Instagram was not great. 559 00:28:10,215 --> 00:28:12,680 And I just wondered if you could tell people a little bit about like. 560 00:28:14,340 --> 00:28:16,649 Not to take you back to a dark place, but like what? 561 00:28:16,919 --> 00:28:17,280 Oh no. 562 00:28:17,310 --> 00:28:18,120 What would happen? 563 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:19,260 What would happen? 564 00:28:19,260 --> 00:28:22,919 Like what kind of feelings would arise when you did engage in Instagram? 565 00:28:23,715 --> 00:28:25,725 I mean, it should boilerplate stuff. 566 00:28:25,725 --> 00:28:27,764 I'm, I'm sure it's the same stuff everyone deals with. 567 00:28:27,764 --> 00:28:32,504 Like if I saw a post, uh, from, and I'm sorry to throw you under 568 00:28:32,504 --> 00:28:36,735 the bus, Ollie, but if I saw a post from Shaky Graves about some awesome 569 00:28:36,735 --> 00:28:41,024 show that he was playing, I would just instantly feel terrible sitting 570 00:28:41,024 --> 00:28:43,754 at my house, not doing anything. 571 00:28:43,905 --> 00:28:48,074 You know, like I, I would imagine that it's the same for every musician. 572 00:28:48,074 --> 00:28:50,625 Like it's just this comparison machine. 573 00:28:50,844 --> 00:28:56,064 Um, and not only is it like a way that you can compare yourself and 574 00:28:56,064 --> 00:29:00,594 your career to other people, but it's, it's not, uh, it's not real. 575 00:29:00,655 --> 00:29:04,885 Like you, when you open it and you look at what other people are 576 00:29:04,885 --> 00:29:11,094 doing, you're comparing your life to their projected version of where 577 00:29:11,094 --> 00:29:12,925 they are and where their career is. 578 00:29:12,925 --> 00:29:14,125 Like everyone looks. 579 00:29:14,550 --> 00:29:17,670 Very happy and successful in photos. 580 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,470 You know, I just, I randomly just thought of, uh, uh, shaky graves as 581 00:29:22,470 --> 00:29:23,670 being a post that I would look at. 582 00:29:23,670 --> 00:29:29,250 But I do remember seeing him, you know, post something at some show in Colorado, 583 00:29:29,340 --> 00:29:33,780 um, and I can't remember what it was, but it looked, it looked awesome. 584 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,210 Um, and I love his music and I love him. 585 00:29:36,690 --> 00:29:40,710 And I think I was playing in fucking, you know, Boise, 586 00:29:40,710 --> 00:29:42,420 Idaho that night or something. 587 00:29:42,435 --> 00:29:42,655 And. 588 00:29:43,365 --> 00:29:48,105 Probably had 80 people at my show and was just like, you know, that's an example 589 00:29:48,105 --> 00:29:52,935 of, of where I feel like my mind would go, you know, people just posting their, 590 00:29:53,805 --> 00:30:01,845 their accolades or their, everyone's at some music festival that I'm not at, you 591 00:30:01,845 --> 00:30:06,285 know, or everyone's, everyone's, um, you know, at some award show that I'm not at. 592 00:30:06,315 --> 00:30:11,595 Um, and like, I don't think that, uh. 593 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:17,160 I just don't know that it's healthy for me to be seeing what everyone 594 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:18,330 else is up to all the time. 595 00:30:18,330 --> 00:30:21,240 And, and not just from like a personal perspective, but 596 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,060 like on a, on a musical tip. 597 00:30:24,390 --> 00:30:26,700 Um, I just don't know that. 598 00:30:27,570 --> 00:30:32,610 Having that much input at all times is good for me as a creator. 599 00:30:32,910 --> 00:30:36,120 Robert went through a major life shift a few years back. 600 00:30:36,210 --> 00:30:41,190 He quit drinking, started therapy, got on an antidepressant and leaned heavily into 601 00:30:41,190 --> 00:30:43,560 meditation to work through his depression. 602 00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:51,300 I found myself just feeling totally, I wasn't finding much joy in, in really 603 00:30:51,300 --> 00:30:55,290 anything that I was doing, and on paper, all the things that I was doing. 604 00:30:55,845 --> 00:30:59,115 They were really good things like, you know, if I had told 605 00:30:59,115 --> 00:31:01,035 someone like, what are you up to? 606 00:31:01,155 --> 00:31:03,495 And I listed off all the things I was working on. 607 00:31:03,495 --> 00:31:06,855 Like it's all good stuff and stuff that I should be fortunate, 608 00:31:07,095 --> 00:31:08,145 you know, to get to do. 609 00:31:08,355 --> 00:31:10,275 But none of it was exciting. 610 00:31:10,485 --> 00:31:16,215 It was all just like, I, I was, I think, depressed and, you know, the, 611 00:31:16,335 --> 00:31:17,986 the real sign to me that it was like. 612 00:31:18,825 --> 00:31:23,025 Too much, um, was that I just, I wasn't even enjoying playing shows anymore. 613 00:31:23,565 --> 00:31:24,285 At the time. 614 00:31:24,285 --> 00:31:28,575 He was playing music, running a bar and a studio, and raising three kids. 615 00:31:28,785 --> 00:31:33,495 But despite it all, he felt disconnected and overwhelmed through meditation 616 00:31:33,495 --> 00:31:34,905 and a commitment to being present. 617 00:31:34,965 --> 00:31:37,095 He found a path back to himself. 618 00:31:37,635 --> 00:31:41,050 One of the things that was very helpful to me was the waking up app. 619 00:31:42,135 --> 00:31:47,115 It's like the Sam Harris started a med meditation app that, um, it's 620 00:31:47,115 --> 00:31:53,295 just really well done and it's, it's rooted in like Tibetan Buddhism, but 621 00:31:53,295 --> 00:31:55,575 it's also, you know, it's Sam Harris. 622 00:31:55,575 --> 00:32:01,815 So it's, it's got a secular bent to it and I think that one could really benefit from 623 00:32:01,815 --> 00:32:05,745 it having no religious dogma attached. 624 00:32:06,375 --> 00:32:08,985 So you, you packed up your Instagram, you. 625 00:32:09,585 --> 00:32:10,425 Deleted everything. 626 00:32:10,485 --> 00:32:12,255 You have one post, you walked away. 627 00:32:13,035 --> 00:32:14,985 Um, how have 628 00:32:14,985 --> 00:32:16,695 things changed for you? 629 00:32:17,715 --> 00:32:21,225 Well, the beauty of this is I have no way of knowing how things have 630 00:32:21,225 --> 00:32:23,535 changed because I'm not on Instagram. 631 00:32:23,535 --> 00:32:27,465 But see it, I have, I mean, really, like I have no idea. 632 00:32:27,555 --> 00:32:31,515 I have no idea if this is like quote unquote bad for my 633 00:32:31,515 --> 00:32:33,615 career or good for my career. 634 00:32:34,035 --> 00:32:38,325 Like I'm doing the same things I was doing before I'm touring. 635 00:32:39,180 --> 00:32:40,440 I'm working on albums. 636 00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:44,730 Uh, you know, I, I play with a bunch of different people and, and have my hand 637 00:32:44,730 --> 00:32:46,140 at a bunch of different things, and. 638 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,680 So far, like when I play my own shows, I haven't really noticed a difference 639 00:32:52,770 --> 00:32:54,900 in the people that turn up to the shows. 640 00:32:54,900 --> 00:32:56,040 I have an email list. 641 00:32:56,070 --> 00:33:00,720 I send an email out, like maybe once a month that just says like, Hey, this is 642 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,580 what I'm up to over the next few months. 643 00:33:02,670 --> 00:33:04,380 If you wanna come to a show, mark your calendar. 644 00:33:04,770 --> 00:33:10,320 Like, I haven't noticed a, a difference in the perceived quality 645 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:16,680 of my career, but I also think that's like, that's part of the illusion. 646 00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:23,250 That social media gives you in general is this, this sense of 647 00:33:24,060 --> 00:33:28,470 of control and this sense of like understanding the narrative of your 648 00:33:28,470 --> 00:33:30,690 own life through the eyes of others. 649 00:33:31,530 --> 00:33:34,950 When I asked him how he promotes his shows, he mentioned that having 650 00:33:34,950 --> 00:33:39,630 the email list of 30,000 people definitely helps, but there's 651 00:33:39,630 --> 00:33:41,910 another element most people overlook. 652 00:33:42,555 --> 00:33:46,725 Back in my day, we used to have a thing called promoters, and 653 00:33:46,725 --> 00:33:48,855 in each town the promoter would. 654 00:33:49,635 --> 00:33:52,605 Would promote the show, it's actually in the job title. 655 00:33:52,755 --> 00:33:58,605 Um, they would be responsible for letting the community in a given city 656 00:33:58,605 --> 00:34:03,525 know that an artist was playing and getting those people out to the concert. 657 00:34:03,615 --> 00:34:05,025 And, you know, like. 658 00:34:05,265 --> 00:34:08,175 Social media has definitely changed how that works. 659 00:34:08,235 --> 00:34:13,395 But it still is the case that in a town, take Austin for instance, 660 00:34:13,665 --> 00:34:18,345 there, there is a thriving community of people who like music. 661 00:34:18,405 --> 00:34:19,304 Like that's what they do. 662 00:34:19,304 --> 00:34:20,355 They see shows. 663 00:34:20,355 --> 00:34:24,750 If they get a sitter and go out for a night, they're gonna go see a concert. 664 00:34:25,699 --> 00:34:29,480 Those are the same people that go by water new to get elbows. 665 00:34:29,569 --> 00:34:34,819 Um, and, you know, they're, they're the same people who listen to KUT and 666 00:34:34,819 --> 00:34:39,319 like I do find that these, these sort of, I guess, terrestrial or analog. 667 00:34:40,545 --> 00:34:43,815 Real places, they still have an outsized effect. 668 00:34:43,935 --> 00:34:48,765 Like if KUT were to promote my show in Austin, I feel like more people would come 669 00:34:48,765 --> 00:34:50,955 than if I ran a million Instagram ads. 670 00:34:51,075 --> 00:34:56,565 Um, maybe that's wrong, but like if I do an in-store at Waterloo, I 671 00:34:56,565 --> 00:35:02,025 feel like more people know about my show at the Mohawk than if I had, 672 00:35:02,115 --> 00:35:03,765 you know, made a hundred posts. 673 00:35:03,885 --> 00:35:05,595 So like, and every town has that. 674 00:35:06,285 --> 00:35:09,255 And I, I will say I've gotten some. 675 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,950 Some pushback from promoters recently where they're like, Hey, 676 00:35:14,069 --> 00:35:15,690 the show's coming up in a week. 677 00:35:15,870 --> 00:35:19,140 I just, I've noticed that Robert hasn't posted anything and this, this 678 00:35:19,140 --> 00:35:20,850 happened before I got off social media. 679 00:35:20,970 --> 00:35:25,560 And what's great is now I can just post them to the, you know, I can 680 00:35:25,740 --> 00:35:29,970 refer them to the sign and just be like, go look at my Instagram. 681 00:35:29,970 --> 00:35:31,049 I don't post anything. 682 00:35:31,710 --> 00:35:35,430 We asked Robert how leaving social media has affected his bottom line. 683 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,750 I mean, like I said, I'm very fortunate and I'm in a different kind of place 684 00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:41,819 in my life and career than many people. 685 00:35:41,819 --> 00:35:47,850 But like, um, I still do, you know, a number of solo shows. 686 00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:52,259 Um, and I, I play guitar and bass with a number of groups. 687 00:35:52,319 --> 00:35:57,120 Um, so I've been out in the St. Vincent all last month and I'm doing some more 688 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:03,180 stuff over the summer and some random sort of normal, normal things happening. 689 00:36:03,689 --> 00:36:07,350 In the studio and, and with my solo shows and like, and yeah, I haven't, 690 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,250 I haven't noticed a difference at all. 691 00:36:11,250 --> 00:36:14,910 And the mer, the merch thing, like, hard to say. 692 00:36:14,910 --> 00:36:17,790 I've never been great at social media. 693 00:36:18,270 --> 00:36:19,620 I mean, especially over COVID. 694 00:36:19,979 --> 00:36:24,390 There were times where I like maybe put up a t-shirt and. 695 00:36:24,975 --> 00:36:28,545 People just, you know, bought all hundred of 'em or whatever I 696 00:36:28,545 --> 00:36:30,075 made, and it was really helpful. 697 00:36:30,075 --> 00:36:32,055 It helped me pay my mortgage for that month. 698 00:36:32,234 --> 00:36:36,015 And lessons I could say the same about, like, I've, I always would make a big post 699 00:36:36,015 --> 00:36:40,515 around Christmas, like, hey, if anyone wants to do private lessons, and, you 700 00:36:40,515 --> 00:36:44,775 know, I could pretty reliably get like 20, 30 people to get private lessons from me. 701 00:36:44,775 --> 00:36:48,495 And that, that was like a huge, huge financial help. 702 00:36:48,795 --> 00:36:51,615 But, you know, I'm not, I don't do it that often. 703 00:36:51,795 --> 00:36:52,755 I never have. 704 00:36:52,815 --> 00:36:53,384 And. 705 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:58,350 I was never doing huge numbers, but like this last tour I did, I 706 00:36:58,350 --> 00:37:03,660 brought, I think I was out for a week and I had 50 t-shirts made, and 707 00:37:03,660 --> 00:37:04,860 they were all gone when I got home. 708 00:37:04,950 --> 00:37:11,220 So I, I don't know, it doesn't seem like it's really affecting me that much, 709 00:37:11,550 --> 00:37:14,855 but he knows not everyone is able to do what he's done. 710 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,670 I'm in a slightly different place in my life and career 711 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:22,920 than I know many people are. 712 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,990 Like, I'm 36, I've got, I don't know, seven some records out, 713 00:37:27,990 --> 00:37:29,700 and a bunch of side projects. 714 00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:33,450 And like I've been touring heavily for like 15 years. 715 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:38,310 And I do think that as it pertains to social media, that allowed me to 716 00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:43,950 have, you know, I, I have people that will come to my shows in most markets. 717 00:37:44,685 --> 00:37:51,105 I, I feel like I have, I have fans, you know, people that will support 718 00:37:51,105 --> 00:37:55,485 me and listen to my music, and I just didn't feel like social media was 719 00:37:55,710 --> 00:37:58,185 a, a crucial part of that for me. 720 00:37:58,305 --> 00:38:02,985 Now, I, I think where I, starting out in music right now, that it might 721 00:38:02,985 --> 00:38:04,815 be a totally different calculation. 722 00:38:05,070 --> 00:38:08,805 I, I know a lot of people use it as a tool to get fans and to 723 00:38:08,805 --> 00:38:12,885 create opportunities, but I, I'm, you know, I'm also not convinced. 724 00:38:13,530 --> 00:38:17,820 Uh, of that, either that that's the best way to do that, either. 725 00:38:18,060 --> 00:38:19,440 Have you found more joy? 726 00:38:20,970 --> 00:38:21,660 Oh my God. 727 00:38:22,020 --> 00:38:24,660 Yeah, I'm on a tear right now, guys. 728 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,250 I'm like, uh, I'm definitely that. 729 00:38:29,250 --> 00:38:35,910 I, I mean, it's, knock on wood, I hesitate to say, but like 30, I'm 36, 35, and 36. 730 00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:38,100 Have by a long shot. 731 00:38:38,250 --> 00:38:40,245 Been my best, the best years of my life. 732 00:38:41,100 --> 00:38:44,010 I'm just like, I, I don't know. 733 00:38:44,190 --> 00:38:47,160 It's just, um, it's really fun. 734 00:38:47,460 --> 00:38:50,760 Like all of the things that I've chosen to do with my life turns 735 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,400 out are really cool and fun things. 736 00:38:54,390 --> 00:38:59,550 And once I learned to just appreciate them, you know, moment to moment, 737 00:38:59,610 --> 00:39:03,900 I feel like, you know, I, I just have a really beautiful, rich life. 738 00:39:04,410 --> 00:39:07,230 Music and, and people that I care about. 739 00:39:07,890 --> 00:39:12,240 Uh, but yeah, I, yes, I've, I've been very much enjoying myself. 740 00:39:19,649 --> 00:39:24,060 We wanna thank Tribe Mafia, Walker Lucin, Sarah Houser, and Robert Ellis 741 00:39:24,210 --> 00:39:27,734 for talking to us about social media, because we know it's complicated. 742 00:39:28,575 --> 00:39:28,815 It 743 00:39:28,815 --> 00:39:29,715 certainly is. 744 00:39:30,315 --> 00:39:34,335 In the next episode of Pause Play, we'll be talking about streaming. 745 00:39:34,695 --> 00:39:38,865 Most musicians put their music on streaming services, but not many of 746 00:39:38,865 --> 00:39:40,785 them are getting much money from it. 747 00:39:41,175 --> 00:39:44,415 Are there other better ways to get music out in the world? 748 00:39:44,865 --> 00:39:46,185 What could the future of. 749 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:47,610 Dreaming look like. 750 00:39:49,110 --> 00:39:52,410 Pauses play is a production of KUT and KUTX studios. 751 00:39:52,770 --> 00:39:56,310 It's hosted and produced by me, Elizabeth McQueen and me Miles 752 00:39:56,340 --> 00:39:58,980 Bloon, engineering and editing help 753 00:39:58,980 --> 00:40:00,930 from Jake Perlman and Renee Chavez. 754 00:40:00,990 --> 00:40:03,750 Abby Bri Fogle and Tou Thomas helped with production. 755 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,480 Stephanie Federico is our digital editor. 756 00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:09,060 Michael Manasi is our multimedia editor. 757 00:40:09,090 --> 00:40:14,130 Our theme song was created by the talented Jerron Marshall Cosplay is a listener 758 00:40:14,130 --> 00:40:16,045 supported production of KUT and KTF. 759 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,560 Studios in Austin, Texas, you can support our work by becoming a 760 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,800 sustaining member@supportthispodcast.org 761 00:40:30,270 --> 00:40:34,410 Support for Pause Play comes from Metropolis Apartments featuring a variety 762 00:40:34,410 --> 00:40:38,370 of floor plans, from efficiency to five bedrooms, as well as a community that 763 00:40:38,370 --> 00:40:40,560 embraces art, music, and creativity. 764 00:40:40,650 --> 00:40:43,470 more@metropolisapartmentsaustin.com.