WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.950 --> 00:00:17.989 From the University of Texas 2 00:00:17.990 --> 00:00:19.817 at Austin and KUT Radio, 3 00:00:19.818 --> 00:00:22.309 this is 4 00:00:22.310 --> 00:00:23.239 In Black America. 5 00:00:23.240 --> 00:00:24.589 That's why I wrote the book Black 6 00:00:24.590 --> 00:00:25.969 Fatigue, because it's fatigue in 7 00:00:25.970 --> 00:00:27.829 generation after generation 8 00:00:27.830 --> 00:00:29.299 to have the same story. 9 00:00:29.300 --> 00:00:31.159 So, you know, I was in 10 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:33.049 the workforce, you know, 36, 11 00:00:33.050 --> 00:00:34.309 38 years ago. 12 00:00:34.310 --> 00:00:35.659 But I'm hearing from the younger 13 00:00:35.660 --> 00:00:36.709 people, and the reason I wrote the 14 00:00:36.710 --> 00:00:37.609 book actually, is because 15 00:00:37.610 --> 00:00:38.989 millennials were telling me when I 16 00:00:38.990 --> 00:00:40.879 went into organizations 17 00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:42.229 doing the work that the Winters 18 00:00:42.230 --> 00:00:43.159 group does. 19 00:00:43.160 --> 00:00:43.969 They were saying, you know, we're 20 00:00:43.970 --> 00:00:45.109 tired, we're exhausted. 21 00:00:45.110 --> 00:00:46.339 I'm like, you, 30 years old. 22 00:00:46.340 --> 00:00:47.839 How are you? Exhausted already. 23 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:49.129 And they look at me with their side 24 00:00:49.130 --> 00:00:50.119 of the we're exhausted. 25 00:00:50.120 --> 00:00:51.859 So if the younger generation is 26 00:00:51.860 --> 00:00:53.869 exhausted from the microaggressions 27 00:00:53.870 --> 00:00:55.549 and the racism that is in the 28 00:00:55.550 --> 00:00:57.139 workplace, you know, think about the 29 00:00:57.140 --> 00:00:58.219 younger generation and the new 30 00:00:58.220 --> 00:00:59.809 generation coming into play. 31 00:00:59.810 --> 00:01:01.699 So it's generation after generation. 32 00:01:01.700 --> 00:01:03.259 And so that's why I wrote the book. 33 00:01:03.260 --> 00:01:05.059 It's intergenerational fatigue. 34 00:01:05.060 --> 00:01:06.979 We have not fixed the issues. 35 00:01:06.980 --> 00:01:08.629 I have conversations with clients 36 00:01:08.630 --> 00:01:10.489 that I had 30 years ago and have the 37 00:01:10.490 --> 00:01:11.479 same conversations. 38 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:13.319 I was shocked when, um, 39 00:01:13.320 --> 00:01:14.779 you know, George Floyd happened and 40 00:01:14.780 --> 00:01:16.009 then all of the companies started to 41 00:01:16.010 --> 00:01:17.059 put out the statements about 42 00:01:17.060 --> 00:01:18.949 anti-racism and these CEOs 43 00:01:18.950 --> 00:01:20.569 were claiming we didn't know. 44 00:01:20.570 --> 00:01:22.429 Mary Frances Winters, founder 45 00:01:22.430 --> 00:01:24.139 and president of the Witness Group, 46 00:01:24.140 --> 00:01:25.249 Inc. 47 00:01:25.250 --> 00:01:27.049 and author of Black Fatigue How 48 00:01:27.050 --> 00:01:28.969 Racism Erode the Mind, Body 49 00:01:28.970 --> 00:01:30.799 and Spirit, published by the Red 50 00:01:30.800 --> 00:01:32.629 Color Publishers. 51 00:01:32.630 --> 00:01:34.369 Black fatigue is the physical and 52 00:01:34.370 --> 00:01:35.779 psychological toll on 53 00:01:35.780 --> 00:01:37.669 African-Americans daily lives 54 00:01:37.670 --> 00:01:40.249 as a result of systematic racism. 55 00:01:40.250 --> 00:01:42.349 The damage wrought by racism isn't 56 00:01:42.350 --> 00:01:44.299 the only atrocity so powerfully 57 00:01:44.300 --> 00:01:45.979 condemned in the demonstrations and 58 00:01:45.980 --> 00:01:47.869 protests around the world is 59 00:01:47.870 --> 00:01:49.759 the constant barrage of everything 60 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:51.979 from daily microaggressions to over 61 00:01:51.980 --> 00:01:53.899 acts of brutality that aren't 62 00:01:53.900 --> 00:01:55.969 captured on cell phones. 63 00:01:55.970 --> 00:01:58.069 Until we address this, things won't 64 00:01:58.070 --> 00:01:59.119 change. 65 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:00.679 In a book wouldn't make clear that 66 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:02.659 African Americans are exhausted from 67 00:02:02.660 --> 00:02:05.299 the long history of blatant racism. 68 00:02:05.300 --> 00:02:07.129 In nine chapters, Winter's 69 00:02:07.130 --> 00:02:09.049 exploration on the subject is not 70 00:02:09.050 --> 00:02:11.539 only proof of racial disparity, 71 00:02:11.540 --> 00:02:13.669 but a step by step guide designed 72 00:02:13.670 --> 00:02:15.379 to educate and what African 73 00:02:15.380 --> 00:02:17.449 Americans can do about it. 74 00:02:17.450 --> 00:02:19.369 I'm John Leo Henson Junior and 75 00:02:19.370 --> 00:02:21.649 welcome to another edition of 76 00:02:21.650 --> 00:02:22.429 In Black America. 77 00:02:22.430 --> 00:02:24.109 On this week's program, Black 78 00:02:24.110 --> 00:02:26.809 Fatigue with Mary Frances Winters 79 00:02:26.810 --> 00:02:27.979 and Black America. 80 00:02:27.980 --> 00:02:30.109 So we have been, you know, 81 00:02:30.110 --> 00:02:31.969 in this mindset of equality, just 82 00:02:31.970 --> 00:02:34.069 give everybody the same thing. 83 00:02:34.070 --> 00:02:35.119 Well, when you're when you're 84 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:36.979 starting from a deficit position, 85 00:02:36.980 --> 00:02:38.389 when you're starting from not having 86 00:02:38.390 --> 00:02:40.519 had the same thing, 87 00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:41.839 you know, you need to give people 88 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:43.519 what they need in order to succeed. 89 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:44.689 So the image in the book that you're 90 00:02:44.690 --> 00:02:46.219 talking about is like these three 91 00:02:46.220 --> 00:02:48.139 little kids trying to see over a 92 00:02:48.140 --> 00:02:50.359 fence to a baseball game. 93 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:52.369 And they gave they gave all the kids 94 00:02:52.370 --> 00:02:54.049 the same size box. 95 00:02:54.050 --> 00:02:56.479 Well, you know, one child was tall 96 00:02:56.480 --> 00:02:57.649 and he didn't need a box. 97 00:02:57.650 --> 00:02:58.909 Exactly. 98 00:02:58.910 --> 00:03:00.739 Another child was very short. 99 00:03:00.740 --> 00:03:01.609 She needed to box. 100 00:03:01.610 --> 00:03:02.599 And the third child was in a 101 00:03:02.600 --> 00:03:03.919 wheelchair and didn't need the box 102 00:03:03.920 --> 00:03:05.269 at all. It needed a ramp, you know, 103 00:03:05.270 --> 00:03:07.129 in order to get up, you know, to 104 00:03:07.130 --> 00:03:09.019 see. And so when we think about 105 00:03:09.020 --> 00:03:10.159 equity, that's equity. 106 00:03:10.160 --> 00:03:12.139 So equity is when, you 107 00:03:12.140 --> 00:03:13.519 know, when we give people what they 108 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:14.779 need. Equality. 109 00:03:14.780 --> 00:03:16.189 I was talking about giving people 110 00:03:16.190 --> 00:03:17.359 all the same thing. 111 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:19.369 And I maintain that we need equity 112 00:03:19.370 --> 00:03:20.449 to get to equality. 113 00:03:20.450 --> 00:03:22.399 Black fatigue is a phenomena 114 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:24.289 with which African-Americans are all 115 00:03:24.290 --> 00:03:25.699 too familiar. 116 00:03:25.700 --> 00:03:27.589 Drawing from my own experiences 117 00:03:27.590 --> 00:03:29.419 as a first generation American 118 00:03:29.420 --> 00:03:32.179 born of African Canadian parents, 119 00:03:32.180 --> 00:03:34.609 her endures of racism in education 120 00:03:34.610 --> 00:03:36.829 and in corporate America, and deeply 121 00:03:36.830 --> 00:03:39.109 researched facts and statistics. 122 00:03:39.110 --> 00:03:40.939 Black Fatigue highlights the history 123 00:03:40.940 --> 00:03:42.589 of white supremacy and racist 124 00:03:42.590 --> 00:03:45.229 systems that led to African-American 125 00:03:45.230 --> 00:03:47.449 intergenerational fatigue. 126 00:03:47.450 --> 00:03:49.309 It focuses on the impact of black 127 00:03:49.310 --> 00:03:51.319 fatigue, on African-Americans and 128 00:03:51.320 --> 00:03:52.729 on society. 129 00:03:52.730 --> 00:03:54.529 The racist system is not just 130 00:03:54.530 --> 00:03:56.629 literally killing African-Americans, 131 00:03:56.630 --> 00:03:58.969 is tearing this nation apart 132 00:03:58.970 --> 00:04:00.859 in every aspect of life, from 133 00:04:00.860 --> 00:04:02.959 socioeconomic to education, 134 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:04.699 the workforce, criminal justice, 135 00:04:04.700 --> 00:04:06.289 and, very importantly, health 136 00:04:06.290 --> 00:04:07.459 outcomes. 137 00:04:07.460 --> 00:04:09.109 Mary Thatcher Winters has a 138 00:04:09.110 --> 00:04:10.969 well-deserved reputation as one of 139 00:04:10.970 --> 00:04:12.439 the country's most thoughtful and 140 00:04:12.440 --> 00:04:14.509 courageous voices on race. 141 00:04:14.510 --> 00:04:16.069 She has spent over three decades 142 00:04:16.070 --> 00:04:18.469 inspiring hundreds of organizations 143 00:04:18.470 --> 00:04:20.148 and thousands of individuals, a 144 00:04:20.149 --> 00:04:21.768 thought provoking message and our 145 00:04:21.769 --> 00:04:24.619 approach to diversity and inclusion 146 00:04:24.620 --> 00:04:26.839 in black America spoke with winners 147 00:04:26.840 --> 00:04:28.579 regarding this groundbreaking 148 00:04:28.580 --> 00:04:29.689 observation. 149 00:04:29.690 --> 00:04:31.819 I was born and raised in the upstate 150 00:04:31.820 --> 00:04:33.409 New York area of Buffalo, Niagara 151 00:04:33.410 --> 00:04:35.239 Falls area, and then I moved to 152 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:37.159 Rochester, New York for school. 153 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:38.449 Then I moved to D.C. 154 00:04:38.450 --> 00:04:39.919 then I moved to now living in 155 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:41.509 Charlotte, North Carolina. 156 00:04:41.510 --> 00:04:43.219 Mary, tell us about the women's 157 00:04:43.220 --> 00:04:45.199 group. When did you start it and 158 00:04:45.200 --> 00:04:46.099 why? 159 00:04:46.100 --> 00:04:48.209 Yes, well, I started it in 1984. 160 00:04:48.210 --> 00:04:49.519 I left the corporate world because 161 00:04:49.520 --> 00:04:51.469 as a black woman, I didn't feel 162 00:04:51.470 --> 00:04:53.419 that I was being, you know, valued 163 00:04:53.420 --> 00:04:54.769 and respected. 164 00:04:54.770 --> 00:04:56.389 By all accounts, I was doing very, 165 00:04:56.390 --> 00:04:58.309 very well. Kodak sent me for 166 00:04:58.310 --> 00:05:00.229 my MBA with four with three 167 00:05:00.230 --> 00:05:01.399 other people. There were four of us. 168 00:05:01.400 --> 00:05:02.959 They took four people a year to send 169 00:05:02.960 --> 00:05:05.089 to an executive MBA program. 170 00:05:05.090 --> 00:05:06.649 The three white the three white men 171 00:05:06.650 --> 00:05:07.969 who came, graduated from the 172 00:05:07.970 --> 00:05:09.859 program, received, you 173 00:05:09.860 --> 00:05:11.329 know, they got big jobs, big vice 174 00:05:11.330 --> 00:05:12.589 president job. And so that's what 175 00:05:12.590 --> 00:05:14.599 happened for me to know that wasn't 176 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:15.839 the case for me. 177 00:05:15.840 --> 00:05:17.019 Uh, you know, my hair. 178 00:05:17.020 --> 00:05:18.309 I was wearing a short afro. 179 00:05:18.310 --> 00:05:19.749 One of my colleagues asked me, you 180 00:05:19.750 --> 00:05:21.459 know, will your hair grow? 181 00:05:21.460 --> 00:05:22.719 And I said we had to grow this. 182 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:24.139 He said, Well, you ought to let it. 183 00:05:24.140 --> 00:05:25.629 You know, So I went through a lot of 184 00:05:25.630 --> 00:05:26.859 different things as a black woman. 185 00:05:26.860 --> 00:05:28.329 I would go home crying every night 186 00:05:28.330 --> 00:05:30.099 just saying, This is not for me. 187 00:05:30.100 --> 00:05:31.659 And if I was going to make it or not 188 00:05:31.660 --> 00:05:33.369 in life, I didn't want it to be some 189 00:05:33.370 --> 00:05:35.019 white man telling me I was too busy 190 00:05:35.020 --> 00:05:36.609 or not enough that I wanted. 191 00:05:36.610 --> 00:05:37.779 If I didn't make it in life, I 192 00:05:37.780 --> 00:05:39.309 wanted to be because Mary Frances 193 00:05:39.310 --> 00:05:40.959 didn't work hard enough because, you 194 00:05:40.960 --> 00:05:43.299 know, I didn't have the 195 00:05:43.300 --> 00:05:44.709 have the right stuff. 196 00:05:44.710 --> 00:05:46.569 And so I felt that entrepreneurship, 197 00:05:46.570 --> 00:05:47.979 which I still feel for black people, 198 00:05:47.980 --> 00:05:49.869 is the is the way entrepreneurship 199 00:05:49.870 --> 00:05:51.549 was the root for me, because I could 200 00:05:51.550 --> 00:05:53.439 in some ways control 201 00:05:53.440 --> 00:05:55.179 my own destiny, even though I still, 202 00:05:55.180 --> 00:05:56.619 you know, have clients who try to 203 00:05:56.620 --> 00:05:58.389 control how we do things. 204 00:05:58.390 --> 00:05:59.649 There's still an independence with 205 00:05:59.650 --> 00:06:00.439 entrepreneurship. 206 00:06:00.440 --> 00:06:02.439 So in 1984, I ventured 207 00:06:02.440 --> 00:06:03.729 out and as a matter of fact, it was 208 00:06:03.730 --> 00:06:06.459 such an anomaly at that time. 209 00:06:06.460 --> 00:06:08.139 The local newspaper in Rochester, 210 00:06:08.140 --> 00:06:09.459 New York, wrote an article. 211 00:06:09.460 --> 00:06:11.049 A woman starts business in her 212 00:06:11.050 --> 00:06:12.999 basement because at the time people 213 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:13.869 were not doing that. 214 00:06:13.870 --> 00:06:15.939 And so, yes, it's been 36 years, 215 00:06:15.940 --> 00:06:17.829 started as a market research firm 216 00:06:17.830 --> 00:06:19.329 doing qualitative and quantitative 217 00:06:19.330 --> 00:06:20.799 research on consumer kinds of 218 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:22.659 things, and then morphed into 219 00:06:22.660 --> 00:06:24.489 doing research on 220 00:06:24.490 --> 00:06:26.319 employees and looking 221 00:06:26.320 --> 00:06:27.819 at, you know, the plight of black 222 00:06:27.820 --> 00:06:29.679 employees and Asian 223 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:31.689 employees and women 224 00:06:31.690 --> 00:06:32.589 in the organization. 225 00:06:32.590 --> 00:06:33.789 And so that's when I got into the 226 00:06:33.790 --> 00:06:36.369 diversity and inclusion space. 227 00:06:36.370 --> 00:06:38.499 I found an interesting Mary Frances. 228 00:06:38.500 --> 00:06:39.999 Can I call you Mary Frances? 229 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:40.859 Absolutely. 230 00:06:40.860 --> 00:06:42.669 Okay. I found this in Mary Frances 231 00:06:42.670 --> 00:06:45.039 that I had recently interviewed 232 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:46.869 another high tech 233 00:06:46.870 --> 00:06:47.709 CEO. 234 00:06:47.710 --> 00:06:49.689 Her name was Shirley Archambault. 235 00:06:49.690 --> 00:06:51.579 And she stated some 236 00:06:51.580 --> 00:06:53.109 of the same problems that you ran 237 00:06:53.110 --> 00:06:55.449 into when you were in Eastman Kodak. 238 00:06:55.450 --> 00:06:57.489 She became eventually the CEO 239 00:06:57.490 --> 00:06:59.619 of Mich Extreme, which is a 240 00:06:59.620 --> 00:07:01.779 tech firm on the West Coast. 241 00:07:01.780 --> 00:07:04.209 And one of the examples she gave 242 00:07:04.210 --> 00:07:06.159 of her ideas not being 243 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:08.049 valued at her as her 244 00:07:08.050 --> 00:07:09.459 white coworkers. 245 00:07:09.460 --> 00:07:11.319 As you stated that you had done some 246 00:07:11.320 --> 00:07:13.359 research for Eastman Kodak 247 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:14.469 with Fujifilm. 248 00:07:14.470 --> 00:07:16.239 Well, she had been working for 249 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:18.309 blockbusters here in Texas, 250 00:07:18.310 --> 00:07:20.619 and at that time Netflix 251 00:07:20.620 --> 00:07:22.629 was on the horizon 252 00:07:22.630 --> 00:07:25.149 and they had to do some research 253 00:07:25.150 --> 00:07:27.369 about Netflix and 254 00:07:27.370 --> 00:07:28.509 to see if it was going to be a 255 00:07:28.510 --> 00:07:29.919 competitor. Well, she did the 256 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:32.799 research, submitted it to 257 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:34.779 the corporate executive, 258 00:07:34.780 --> 00:07:37.029 and their response was, well, 259 00:07:37.030 --> 00:07:38.259 we don't think so. 260 00:07:38.260 --> 00:07:40.149 And if Netflix 261 00:07:40.150 --> 00:07:42.129 get real large, 262 00:07:42.130 --> 00:07:43.209 we've just buy them. 263 00:07:43.210 --> 00:07:45.189 Well, fast forward 30 years. 264 00:07:45.190 --> 00:07:47.199 Who's still in business that 265 00:07:47.200 --> 00:07:49.059 watches out Netflix 266 00:07:49.060 --> 00:07:50.019 in the U.S. 267 00:07:50.020 --> 00:07:51.939 And like you stated in 268 00:07:51.940 --> 00:07:53.799 your book, Fuji 269 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:55.599 got the sponsorship for the 270 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:57.639 Olympics. So I understand 271 00:07:57.640 --> 00:07:59.709 that this is nothing new 272 00:07:59.710 --> 00:08:01.149 that African-American women's have 273 00:08:01.150 --> 00:08:03.219 to go through once they climb 274 00:08:03.220 --> 00:08:05.319 the corporate ladder as far as 275 00:08:05.320 --> 00:08:07.509 their ideas being on par 276 00:08:07.510 --> 00:08:09.039 with their white coworkers who are 277 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:10.599 also executives. 278 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:12.159 Exactly. And that's why I wrote the 279 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:13.539 book Black Fatigue, because it's 280 00:08:13.540 --> 00:08:14.949 fatigue in generation after 281 00:08:14.950 --> 00:08:16.809 generation to have the same 282 00:08:16.810 --> 00:08:18.729 story. So, you know, 283 00:08:18.730 --> 00:08:20.139 I was in the workforce, you know, 284 00:08:20.140 --> 00:08:22.389 36, 38 years ago. 285 00:08:22.390 --> 00:08:23.739 But I'm hearing from the younger 286 00:08:23.740 --> 00:08:24.819 people. And the reason I wrote the 287 00:08:24.820 --> 00:08:26.319 book actually is because millennials 288 00:08:26.320 --> 00:08:28.299 were telling me when I went into 289 00:08:28.300 --> 00:08:29.889 organizations doing the work that 290 00:08:29.890 --> 00:08:31.239 the Winters group does. 291 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:32.048 They were saying, you know, we're 292 00:08:32.049 --> 00:08:33.219 tired, we're exhausted. 293 00:08:33.220 --> 00:08:34.469 I like you, 30 years old. 294 00:08:34.470 --> 00:08:35.949 Are you exhausted already? 295 00:08:35.950 --> 00:08:37.239 And they look at me with their side 296 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:38.199 of the we're exhausted. 297 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:39.939 So if the younger generation is 298 00:08:39.940 --> 00:08:41.949 exhausted from the microaggressions 299 00:08:41.950 --> 00:08:43.629 and the racism that is in the 300 00:08:43.630 --> 00:08:45.189 workplace, you know, think about the 301 00:08:45.190 --> 00:08:46.269 younger generation and the new 302 00:08:46.270 --> 00:08:47.829 generation coming into play. 303 00:08:47.830 --> 00:08:49.749 So it's generation after generation. 304 00:08:49.750 --> 00:08:51.069 And so that's why I wrote the book. 305 00:08:51.070 --> 00:08:53.109 It's it's intergenerational fatigue. 306 00:08:53.110 --> 00:08:55.029 We have not fixed the issues. 307 00:08:55.030 --> 00:08:56.679 I have conversations with clients 308 00:08:56.680 --> 00:08:58.429 that I had 30 years ago, and they're 309 00:08:58.430 --> 00:08:59.529 the same conversations. 310 00:08:59.530 --> 00:09:01.479 I was shocked when, 311 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:02.829 you know, George Floyd happened and 312 00:09:02.830 --> 00:09:04.059 then all of the companies started to 313 00:09:04.060 --> 00:09:05.109 put out the statements about 314 00:09:05.110 --> 00:09:06.699 anti-racism. 315 00:09:06.700 --> 00:09:08.499 And these CEOs were claiming we 316 00:09:08.500 --> 00:09:09.279 didn't know. 317 00:09:09.280 --> 00:09:10.269 Well, how could you not know? 318 00:09:10.270 --> 00:09:11.619 How could you not know that racism 319 00:09:11.620 --> 00:09:13.089 is still, you know, an issue? 320 00:09:13.090 --> 00:09:14.289 And part of the reason they don't 321 00:09:14.290 --> 00:09:15.939 know is because one of the one of 322 00:09:15.940 --> 00:09:17.139 the books or one of the articles 323 00:09:17.140 --> 00:09:18.699 that I've written is Race 324 00:09:18.700 --> 00:09:20.139 Diversity's four letter word, 325 00:09:20.140 --> 00:09:22.449 because in in all of the diversity 326 00:09:22.450 --> 00:09:24.429 space, race is the one that we've 327 00:09:24.430 --> 00:09:25.719 been we didn't talk about didn't 328 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:27.549 want to talk about things related 329 00:09:27.550 --> 00:09:28.539 to African-Americans, but you 330 00:09:28.540 --> 00:09:30.549 couldn't even use the word racism, 331 00:09:30.550 --> 00:09:32.019 you know, in the corporate space, 332 00:09:32.020 --> 00:09:33.039 because they said, well, if you say 333 00:09:33.040 --> 00:09:33.999 racism, then we're going to get 334 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:35.949 sued. And so you couldn't even talk 335 00:09:35.950 --> 00:09:37.239 about it from the lens if you use 336 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:39.339 words like diversity and inclusion 337 00:09:39.340 --> 00:09:40.269 and belonging. 338 00:09:40.270 --> 00:09:41.799 So you had to sanitize the language. 339 00:09:41.800 --> 00:09:44.019 But now as a result of the protests, 340 00:09:44.020 --> 00:09:45.249 you know, George Floyd, everybody's 341 00:09:45.250 --> 00:09:46.899 now interested in really 342 00:09:46.900 --> 00:09:48.909 understanding how racism plays out 343 00:09:48.910 --> 00:09:50.409 in in the workplace. 344 00:09:50.410 --> 00:09:52.179 I'm coaching a CEO from a it's not a 345 00:09:52.180 --> 00:09:53.739 big company. 2000 employees only 346 00:09:53.740 --> 00:09:55.329 have 36 black people. 347 00:09:55.330 --> 00:09:56.949 And of those 36 black people, the 348 00:09:56.950 --> 00:09:58.629 black people came to them at around 349 00:09:58.630 --> 00:10:00.369 George Floyd's time and said, you 350 00:10:00.370 --> 00:10:01.179 know, we don't think we're being 351 00:10:01.180 --> 00:10:03.159 treated fairly. They did a study 352 00:10:03.160 --> 00:10:04.989 of pay a pay equity study and found 353 00:10:04.990 --> 00:10:06.819 that half, you know, 18 354 00:10:06.820 --> 00:10:08.649 of those 36 355 00:10:08.650 --> 00:10:09.849 black people were actually 356 00:10:09.850 --> 00:10:10.809 underpaid. 357 00:10:10.810 --> 00:10:12.099 Now, how do you not know that 358 00:10:12.100 --> 00:10:13.749 already? How does it take a protest 359 00:10:13.750 --> 00:10:15.469 for you to not know that? 360 00:10:15.470 --> 00:10:17.329 We have systemic racism, but 361 00:10:17.330 --> 00:10:18.109 it's been denied. 362 00:10:18.110 --> 00:10:19.279 One of the chapters in the book is 363 00:10:19.280 --> 00:10:21.079 called Sublime Ignorance. 364 00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:22.429 Right? We don't talk about it. 365 00:10:22.430 --> 00:10:23.539 We deny it. 366 00:10:23.540 --> 00:10:25.039 And it's just happening generation 367 00:10:25.040 --> 00:10:26.689 to generation. And it impacts our 368 00:10:26.690 --> 00:10:28.609 health. It impacts every aspect of 369 00:10:28.610 --> 00:10:30.709 life. And we're fatigued, retired. 370 00:10:30.710 --> 00:10:32.749 And researching 371 00:10:32.750 --> 00:10:34.009 some of the things that you write 372 00:10:34.010 --> 00:10:34.939 about in the book. 373 00:10:34.940 --> 00:10:36.889 And and I think is some 374 00:10:36.890 --> 00:10:38.269 of the things that particularly 375 00:10:38.270 --> 00:10:39.919 African American parents who have 376 00:10:39.920 --> 00:10:42.079 sons, we have to have 377 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:43.969 that particular talk with 378 00:10:43.970 --> 00:10:46.249 our son, but also 379 00:10:46.250 --> 00:10:48.109 the way society is 380 00:10:48.110 --> 00:10:50.059 currently operating until 381 00:10:50.060 --> 00:10:52.369 my son actually comes home at night, 382 00:10:52.370 --> 00:10:54.499 you know, I'm on pins and needles. 383 00:10:54.500 --> 00:10:56.959 And how is that particular mindset 384 00:10:56.960 --> 00:10:58.789 having a 385 00:10:58.790 --> 00:11:00.619 fatigue affect on particularly 386 00:11:00.620 --> 00:11:01.879 parents? 387 00:11:01.880 --> 00:11:03.799 We have a lot of single parents, 388 00:11:03.800 --> 00:11:05.749 old mothers out there with 389 00:11:05.750 --> 00:11:07.939 sons on a day to day basis, 390 00:11:07.940 --> 00:11:09.799 not knowing if their child 391 00:11:09.800 --> 00:11:11.119 is going to make it back home once 392 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:12.259 they leave the house. 393 00:11:12.260 --> 00:11:13.879 Right. That stress is real. 394 00:11:13.880 --> 00:11:16.219 And it the scientists 395 00:11:16.220 --> 00:11:18.109 say that that stress gets 396 00:11:18.110 --> 00:11:19.999 into our cellular system 397 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:21.829 and it creates the 398 00:11:21.830 --> 00:11:23.629 issues around our health. 399 00:11:23.630 --> 00:11:25.459 So racism, not race, 400 00:11:25.460 --> 00:11:27.709 is the cause of many of our health 401 00:11:27.710 --> 00:11:28.219 ailments. 402 00:11:28.220 --> 00:11:29.629 And you write that. 403 00:11:29.630 --> 00:11:31.279 I write about that in chapter four. 404 00:11:31.280 --> 00:11:33.019 Right. Racism literally, literally 405 00:11:33.020 --> 00:11:34.639 makes you sick is what is what it's 406 00:11:34.640 --> 00:11:36.439 called. And I don't think, you know, 407 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:37.729 when I first started writing the 408 00:11:37.730 --> 00:11:38.609 book, the publisher said, well, 409 00:11:38.610 --> 00:11:39.919 who's the book for? 410 00:11:39.920 --> 00:11:41.059 And I saw the book is for white 411 00:11:41.060 --> 00:11:42.949 people. And they said, Oh, really? 412 00:11:42.950 --> 00:11:44.239 Called Black with their fellow black 413 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:45.439 people. We know we're fatigued, but 414 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:46.759 I'm learning from people who are 415 00:11:46.760 --> 00:11:47.689 reading the book Black, they were 416 00:11:47.690 --> 00:11:48.619 reading the book. 417 00:11:48.620 --> 00:11:49.759 They're thanking me for the book 418 00:11:49.760 --> 00:11:50.989 because they're saying they didn't 419 00:11:50.990 --> 00:11:53.119 necessarily correlate 420 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:55.399 their illnesses with 421 00:11:55.400 --> 00:11:57.469 with the book, with the stress 422 00:11:57.470 --> 00:11:58.339 of racism. 423 00:11:58.340 --> 00:12:01.039 Right. Not not if not explicitly. 424 00:12:01.040 --> 00:12:02.599 We have normalized we have 425 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:03.979 normalized that we're just sicker. 426 00:12:03.980 --> 00:12:05.509 We have normalized, you know, all of 427 00:12:05.510 --> 00:12:07.219 these things we just have to work 428 00:12:07.220 --> 00:12:08.129 harder with. 429 00:12:08.130 --> 00:12:09.679 We're more tired, Right. 430 00:12:09.680 --> 00:12:11.119 Fannie Lou said, I'm sick and tired 431 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:12.079 of being sick and tired. 432 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:13.939 And, you know, but when even when we 433 00:12:13.940 --> 00:12:15.169 look at today, you know, all of 434 00:12:15.170 --> 00:12:17.239 these struggles with the election 435 00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:18.829 and what Stacey Abrams and others, 436 00:12:18.830 --> 00:12:20.569 you know, Stacey Abrams in Georgia, 437 00:12:20.570 --> 00:12:22.159 all that work that she has to put in 438 00:12:22.160 --> 00:12:23.239 and the people who are working with 439 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:25.069 her in order to get Joe to 440 00:12:25.070 --> 00:12:26.899 get the result that we got 441 00:12:26.900 --> 00:12:28.759 in Georgia. And so it's 442 00:12:28.760 --> 00:12:30.379 known and it's been written about 443 00:12:30.380 --> 00:12:31.729 that. You know, black women in 444 00:12:31.730 --> 00:12:33.859 particular carried this election, 445 00:12:33.860 --> 00:12:34.999 which they and they carried they 446 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:36.409 carried other elections as well. 447 00:12:36.410 --> 00:12:37.999 And so it's not just black women, 448 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:39.139 but I'm talking about black women in 449 00:12:39.140 --> 00:12:40.759 particular right now to say, yes, 450 00:12:40.760 --> 00:12:42.409 we're sick, we're tired, we're tired 451 00:12:42.410 --> 00:12:43.549 of the workplace, we're tired of 452 00:12:43.550 --> 00:12:45.379 being told, you know, that, you 453 00:12:45.380 --> 00:12:47.059 know, you got to keep keep working 454 00:12:47.060 --> 00:12:47.959 and make it and make it up the 455 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:48.919 corporate ladder. 456 00:12:48.920 --> 00:12:50.329 When you do that, you know, you're 457 00:12:50.330 --> 00:12:52.369 looking at not only yourself, 458 00:12:52.370 --> 00:12:53.869 but you do represent your whole 459 00:12:53.870 --> 00:12:55.969 race. Because if you don't make it, 460 00:12:55.970 --> 00:12:56.779 then they're going to say, well, 461 00:12:56.780 --> 00:12:57.589 we're not going to hire any more 462 00:12:57.590 --> 00:12:58.849 black people, because this one, you 463 00:12:58.850 --> 00:12:59.719 know, this one didn't make it. 464 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:01.759 So that stress, that stress 465 00:13:01.760 --> 00:13:03.589 is really real. 466 00:13:03.590 --> 00:13:05.509 And it is, you know, what happens? 467 00:13:05.510 --> 00:13:07.339 As an example, black women are 468 00:13:07.340 --> 00:13:09.289 twice as likely to to 469 00:13:09.290 --> 00:13:10.669 lose babies and they're twice as 470 00:13:10.670 --> 00:13:12.349 likely to die themselves in 471 00:13:12.350 --> 00:13:13.759 childbirth, regardless of 472 00:13:13.760 --> 00:13:15.229 socioeconomic income. 473 00:13:15.230 --> 00:13:16.639 So black women who are in middle 474 00:13:16.640 --> 00:13:18.469 class still have they 475 00:13:18.470 --> 00:13:20.329 die twice as likely as poor white 476 00:13:20.330 --> 00:13:22.159 women. And the 477 00:13:22.160 --> 00:13:23.779 scientists are saying this is 478 00:13:23.780 --> 00:13:25.309 because of this intergenerational 479 00:13:25.310 --> 00:13:27.409 stress that has intracellular 480 00:13:27.410 --> 00:13:28.549 intracellular systems. 481 00:13:28.550 --> 00:13:30.079 So it's really, really deep what 482 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:32.329 what racism does 483 00:13:32.330 --> 00:13:33.739 to to us. 484 00:13:33.740 --> 00:13:35.779 Now, you use two prefixes 485 00:13:35.780 --> 00:13:36.619 throughout the book. 486 00:13:36.620 --> 00:13:38.779 Intra and insure 487 00:13:38.780 --> 00:13:40.009 tells the difference between the 488 00:13:40.010 --> 00:13:40.639 two. 489 00:13:40.640 --> 00:13:42.559 Yeah. So intra personal 490 00:13:42.560 --> 00:13:44.389 racism, intra means 491 00:13:44.390 --> 00:13:45.859 that we begin to believe the 492 00:13:45.860 --> 00:13:48.199 stereotypes about ourselves and so 493 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:49.489 we internalize that. 494 00:13:49.490 --> 00:13:51.439 And so that then can manifest 495 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:53.239 in, you know, black on black crime, 496 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:55.249 it can manifest in the self, 497 00:13:55.250 --> 00:13:56.359 the self-hatred. 498 00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:57.979 We know that that starts as early as 499 00:13:57.980 --> 00:13:58.980 three years old 500 00:14:00.140 --> 00:14:01.189 in the 40 tens. 501 00:14:01.190 --> 00:14:02.719 And maybe Clark did a study of the 502 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:04.729 black doll study, and little black 503 00:14:04.730 --> 00:14:06.739 kids thought that the white dolls 504 00:14:06.740 --> 00:14:08.299 were better and prettier and 505 00:14:08.300 --> 00:14:09.139 smarter. 506 00:14:09.140 --> 00:14:11.239 And that study has been repeated 507 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:13.099 in like 20 1213 508 00:14:13.100 --> 00:14:14.869 and the same thing. So it starts it 509 00:14:14.870 --> 00:14:17.719 starts early. So that's intra intra 510 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:18.499 racism. 511 00:14:18.500 --> 00:14:20.989 Interpersonal racism or internalized 512 00:14:20.990 --> 00:14:22.819 racism is where you begin to 513 00:14:22.820 --> 00:14:24.529 believe that you are less than that 514 00:14:24.530 --> 00:14:25.549 you're not as good as. 515 00:14:25.550 --> 00:14:27.769 And so that manifests again in how 516 00:14:27.770 --> 00:14:29.699 it manifests and fatigue. 517 00:14:29.700 --> 00:14:31.459 You know, personal racism is 518 00:14:31.460 --> 00:14:32.959 between, you know, so a white person 519 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:35.149 who would call a black person, 520 00:14:35.150 --> 00:14:37.249 you know, the N-word or say, I hate, 521 00:14:37.250 --> 00:14:38.809 you know, black people in their 522 00:14:38.810 --> 00:14:41.239 behavior, which would 523 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:42.229 be racist. 524 00:14:42.230 --> 00:14:43.819 And then there's structural 525 00:14:43.820 --> 00:14:45.439 institutional racism. 526 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:47.179 And the structural racism are those 527 00:14:47.180 --> 00:14:49.279 things that create things like voter 528 00:14:49.280 --> 00:14:50.869 suppression. Other structures are 529 00:14:50.870 --> 00:14:52.849 set up so that black 530 00:14:52.850 --> 00:14:54.949 people have a much more difficult 531 00:14:54.950 --> 00:14:56.539 time getting to the polls. 532 00:14:56.540 --> 00:14:58.129 Structural racism plays out in our 533 00:14:58.130 --> 00:14:59.899 criminal justice system, right? 534 00:14:59.900 --> 00:15:01.489 Why is it that three times more 535 00:15:01.490 --> 00:15:03.199 black men are, you know, are 536 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:04.759 incarcerated and we just you know, 537 00:15:04.760 --> 00:15:06.229 we just saw this I heard this 538 00:15:06.230 --> 00:15:08.419 yesterday with a young man who was 539 00:15:08.420 --> 00:15:10.699 who was executed, you know, 540 00:15:10.700 --> 00:15:11.779 on death row, right? 541 00:15:11.780 --> 00:15:13.609 Yeah. So so all of that, all 542 00:15:13.610 --> 00:15:15.169 of that is structural racism. 543 00:15:15.170 --> 00:15:17.029 How? The structures are set up 544 00:15:17.030 --> 00:15:19.099 to to be against 545 00:15:19.100 --> 00:15:20.899 black people to disproportionately 546 00:15:20.900 --> 00:15:22.819 and negatively impact black people. 547 00:15:22.820 --> 00:15:24.709 So. So what people don't understand 548 00:15:24.710 --> 00:15:25.699 is that there are different levels 549 00:15:25.700 --> 00:15:27.559 of racism. So if you talk about 550 00:15:27.560 --> 00:15:28.939 the word racist, white people get 551 00:15:28.940 --> 00:15:30.379 all upset, Oh, don't call me a 552 00:15:30.380 --> 00:15:31.639 racist. I'm not a racist. 553 00:15:31.640 --> 00:15:32.959 Well, nobody you know, nobody is 554 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:34.609 necessarily calling you personally a 555 00:15:34.610 --> 00:15:35.719 racist, right? 556 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:36.919 I don't know your heart. 557 00:15:36.920 --> 00:15:38.569 But we live in a racialized world. 558 00:15:38.570 --> 00:15:39.649 We live in a world where there's a 559 00:15:39.650 --> 00:15:41.449 racial hierarchy and white people 560 00:15:41.450 --> 00:15:42.529 are at the top of that racial 561 00:15:42.530 --> 00:15:44.509 hierarchy. And so, in essence, 562 00:15:44.510 --> 00:15:46.009 because we all live in a racialized 563 00:15:46.010 --> 00:15:47.269 world, we're all racist. 564 00:15:47.270 --> 00:15:49.279 If you if you want to just extend it 565 00:15:49.280 --> 00:15:51.259 that way. So we have to begin 566 00:15:51.260 --> 00:15:53.179 to really understand these 567 00:15:53.180 --> 00:15:54.649 definitions and what they really 568 00:15:54.650 --> 00:15:56.329 mean before we the conversation gets 569 00:15:56.330 --> 00:15:57.169 shut down. 570 00:15:57.170 --> 00:15:59.059 I was doing a keynote for 571 00:15:59.060 --> 00:16:01.069 a very large sports franchise 572 00:16:01.070 --> 00:16:02.029 the other day and they will say 573 00:16:02.030 --> 00:16:02.959 which one it is, but it's a very 574 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:04.789 large sports franchise and all their 575 00:16:04.790 --> 00:16:05.779 employees were there. 576 00:16:05.780 --> 00:16:07.489 And I use the term white supremacy 577 00:16:07.490 --> 00:16:08.989 culture. I got a call afterwards 578 00:16:08.990 --> 00:16:10.579 saying, well, you know, one of the 579 00:16:10.580 --> 00:16:12.889 senior leaders shut down 580 00:16:12.890 --> 00:16:14.209 was didn't hear anything else you 581 00:16:14.210 --> 00:16:15.469 said after you had said white 582 00:16:15.470 --> 00:16:17.029 supremacy, because people think 583 00:16:17.030 --> 00:16:19.219 white supremacy means the KKK 584 00:16:19.220 --> 00:16:20.269 and neo-Nazis. 585 00:16:20.270 --> 00:16:21.829 It does it. That's part of it. 586 00:16:21.830 --> 00:16:23.449 That's the extreme part of it. 587 00:16:23.450 --> 00:16:24.919 But white supremacy culture, which 588 00:16:24.920 --> 00:16:25.879 white people need to begin to 589 00:16:25.880 --> 00:16:27.739 understand, is how 590 00:16:27.740 --> 00:16:29.359 the world is structured all over the 591 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:30.799 world, not just the United States, 592 00:16:30.800 --> 00:16:32.419 is structured to benefit white 593 00:16:32.420 --> 00:16:34.159 people. The white is supreme, you 594 00:16:34.160 --> 00:16:35.179 know, all over the world. 595 00:16:35.180 --> 00:16:36.109 And so we need to begin to 596 00:16:36.110 --> 00:16:37.009 understand that. 597 00:16:37.010 --> 00:16:38.209 But if you're going to shut down 598 00:16:38.210 --> 00:16:40.339 just because somebody says the word, 599 00:16:40.340 --> 00:16:41.479 how far can we get? 600 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:43.429 And I'm glad you mentioned 601 00:16:43.430 --> 00:16:45.289 there because you brought that up in 602 00:16:45.290 --> 00:16:47.179 the book, why it's 603 00:16:47.180 --> 00:16:49.069 so difficult 604 00:16:49.070 --> 00:16:51.319 or the majority population 605 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:53.179 become offensive when 606 00:16:53.180 --> 00:16:55.189 we talk about racism 607 00:16:55.190 --> 00:16:57.619 to a point that affects 608 00:16:57.620 --> 00:16:59.149 our daily lives. 609 00:16:59.150 --> 00:17:01.219 And if if you're not 610 00:17:01.220 --> 00:17:03.139 Caucasian, you really don't have 611 00:17:03.140 --> 00:17:04.999 to think about it because it's not 612 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:07.519 directly affecting you on a personal 613 00:17:07.520 --> 00:17:08.959 level every day, right? 614 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:10.189 If you are black, if you are if 615 00:17:10.190 --> 00:17:11.779 you're white, it's not affecting you 616 00:17:11.780 --> 00:17:13.309 on a personal level, You know, every 617 00:17:13.310 --> 00:17:15.169 single day you're not living while 618 00:17:15.170 --> 00:17:16.578 black. And so I mentioned to you 619 00:17:16.579 --> 00:17:18.019 that I'm in Florida right now, and 620 00:17:18.020 --> 00:17:19.818 so I'm renting an Airbnb with my 621 00:17:19.819 --> 00:17:21.828 family. And so we had to we 622 00:17:21.829 --> 00:17:23.549 were concerned, well, you know what? 623 00:17:23.550 --> 00:17:24.649 Where's this Airbnb? 624 00:17:24.650 --> 00:17:26.029 What neighborhood is it in? 625 00:17:26.030 --> 00:17:27.739 Is it a all white neighborhood? 626 00:17:27.740 --> 00:17:29.629 And if they see us out walking, 627 00:17:29.630 --> 00:17:30.619 you know what? 628 00:17:30.620 --> 00:17:32.389 How is that going to impact, you 629 00:17:32.390 --> 00:17:33.259 know, us? 630 00:17:33.260 --> 00:17:34.429 And so, you know, you worry about 631 00:17:34.430 --> 00:17:36.259 just doing the simple things 632 00:17:36.260 --> 00:17:37.459 in life which white people don't 633 00:17:37.460 --> 00:17:38.989 have to worry about. 634 00:17:38.990 --> 00:17:41.359 You know, will I be accepted, 635 00:17:41.360 --> 00:17:43.219 you know, going into this this 636 00:17:43.220 --> 00:17:44.059 place of business? 637 00:17:44.060 --> 00:17:45.169 Am I going to be followed in the 638 00:17:45.170 --> 00:17:45.949 store? 639 00:17:45.950 --> 00:17:47.239 You know, all of those kinds of 640 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:48.409 things. Do I have to worry about my 641 00:17:48.410 --> 00:17:50.419 son? I have a son who is a 642 00:17:50.420 --> 00:17:52.069 professor of religion at Duke 643 00:17:52.070 --> 00:17:53.299 University. He graduated from 644 00:17:53.300 --> 00:17:54.919 Harvard and Duke and Princeton. 645 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:56.509 However, he's a big, tall black guy. 646 00:17:56.510 --> 00:17:58.999 Right. And he has had his run ins 647 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:00.859 with with police because 648 00:18:00.860 --> 00:18:02.419 he was in the wrong, you know, wrong 649 00:18:02.420 --> 00:18:03.259 place. Right. 650 00:18:03.260 --> 00:18:04.489 Wrong, wrong place. 651 00:18:04.490 --> 00:18:06.109 Right. You know, not doing anything 652 00:18:06.110 --> 00:18:07.939 wrong at all, but just being. 653 00:18:07.940 --> 00:18:09.619 And so this is what I hear when I do 654 00:18:09.620 --> 00:18:11.929 research as well with people in 655 00:18:11.930 --> 00:18:13.789 with black people in corporations 656 00:18:13.790 --> 00:18:16.039 that just just are very presence. 657 00:18:16.040 --> 00:18:17.599 Just our very presence is often a 658 00:18:17.600 --> 00:18:19.879 threat to white people and therefore 659 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:21.709 creates more black fatigue 660 00:18:21.710 --> 00:18:22.879 for us. 661 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:24.919 I found it interesting as 662 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:26.819 part of Chapter one, 663 00:18:26.820 --> 00:18:28.759 and I wanted to 664 00:18:28.760 --> 00:18:30.469 talk to you about this. 665 00:18:30.470 --> 00:18:32.959 When you've experienced racism 666 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:34.819 in kindergarten and through no 667 00:18:34.820 --> 00:18:36.469 fault of your own youth management 668 00:18:36.470 --> 00:18:37.969 bidness and one of the others didn't 669 00:18:37.970 --> 00:18:39.859 just come up and call you and 670 00:18:39.860 --> 00:18:41.749 the other African-American in 671 00:18:41.750 --> 00:18:43.549 your class the N-word. 672 00:18:43.550 --> 00:18:45.649 And that's when you 673 00:18:45.650 --> 00:18:47.659 realized that throughout 674 00:18:47.660 --> 00:18:49.699 life people will just not like 675 00:18:49.700 --> 00:18:51.169 you because of the color of your 676 00:18:51.170 --> 00:18:52.369 skin. 677 00:18:52.370 --> 00:18:53.959 No, there is. 678 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:54.889 No other reason. 679 00:18:54.890 --> 00:18:56.359 And, you know, when I do work in 680 00:18:56.360 --> 00:18:57.649 this area, again, going and doing 681 00:18:57.650 --> 00:18:59.779 training and whatnot, I often hear 682 00:18:59.780 --> 00:19:01.369 from other black people that their 683 00:19:01.370 --> 00:19:03.619 experience with with figuring 684 00:19:03.620 --> 00:19:05.179 out that the color of their skin 685 00:19:05.180 --> 00:19:06.409 made a difference was at a very 686 00:19:06.410 --> 00:19:08.659 young age as well. 687 00:19:08.660 --> 00:19:10.399 So it's not unusual for us to to 688 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:11.389 have this realization. 689 00:19:11.390 --> 00:19:13.399 But think about a five year old 690 00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:15.409 trying to comprehend that. 691 00:19:15.410 --> 00:19:16.489 Right? You only five years old. 692 00:19:16.490 --> 00:19:17.689 Right? Right. Are you trying to 693 00:19:17.690 --> 00:19:19.399 comprehend what you know, somebody 694 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:20.599 might not like me because of the 695 00:19:20.600 --> 00:19:21.709 color of my skin. 696 00:19:21.710 --> 00:19:23.569 So from that day forward, I 697 00:19:23.570 --> 00:19:24.649 went from this little carefree 698 00:19:24.650 --> 00:19:26.539 little kid to being this cautious 699 00:19:26.540 --> 00:19:27.619 person. Right. 700 00:19:27.620 --> 00:19:29.179 I can't trust people. 701 00:19:29.180 --> 00:19:30.229 I don't know if they're going to 702 00:19:30.230 --> 00:19:31.849 like me. And again, I think impact 703 00:19:31.850 --> 00:19:33.739 my my own my own self-worth, 704 00:19:33.740 --> 00:19:35.569 my own my own self esteem, because 705 00:19:35.570 --> 00:19:37.339 at five years old, you even no 706 00:19:37.340 --> 00:19:38.509 matter what your parents might tell 707 00:19:38.510 --> 00:19:39.769 you about how wonderful you are and 708 00:19:39.770 --> 00:19:41.389 how beautiful you are, you know that 709 00:19:41.390 --> 00:19:43.489 somebody me, you know, told you told 710 00:19:43.490 --> 00:19:45.079 you that that, you know, called you 711 00:19:45.080 --> 00:19:46.639 this bad, bad word. 712 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.049 So, you know, it's been a long time 713 00:19:48.050 --> 00:19:49.039 since I've been in kindergarten. 714 00:19:49.040 --> 00:19:50.539 But I remember that day as if it 715 00:19:50.540 --> 00:19:52.189 were yesterday. I remember what it 716 00:19:52.190 --> 00:19:52.969 looked like. 717 00:19:52.970 --> 00:19:54.169 I remember what the kindergarten 718 00:19:54.170 --> 00:19:55.819 teacher looked like. I remember it. 719 00:19:55.820 --> 00:19:57.349 And I have heard from a lot of other 720 00:19:57.350 --> 00:19:59.179 people as well, because it's a it's 721 00:19:59.180 --> 00:20:00.979 a transformative, traumatic 722 00:20:00.980 --> 00:20:02.539 experience, which you remember for 723 00:20:02.540 --> 00:20:03.469 the rest of your life. 724 00:20:03.470 --> 00:20:05.329 And it does impact how you 725 00:20:05.330 --> 00:20:07.219 experience the world from then on. 726 00:20:07.220 --> 00:20:09.089 My friend, I found it interesting 727 00:20:09.090 --> 00:20:11.149 and I actually went back and read 728 00:20:11.150 --> 00:20:13.189 this particular part a couple 729 00:20:13.190 --> 00:20:15.289 of times, Equity verses. 730 00:20:15.290 --> 00:20:16.549 Equality. 731 00:20:16.550 --> 00:20:18.499 And the illustration was point 732 00:20:18.500 --> 00:20:20.569 on, and I came 733 00:20:20.570 --> 00:20:23.419 up with the conclusion actually 734 00:20:23.420 --> 00:20:25.369 before I started reading what 735 00:20:25.370 --> 00:20:26.179 you had written. 736 00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:28.399 And how did you, 737 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:30.049 you know, come up with this 738 00:20:30.050 --> 00:20:31.769 particular chapter? 739 00:20:31.770 --> 00:20:33.709 Yes. So a lot of people think that, 740 00:20:33.710 --> 00:20:35.359 you know, all we need to do is pull 741 00:20:35.360 --> 00:20:36.649 ourselves up by our bootstraps. 742 00:20:36.650 --> 00:20:38.469 If we get everybody this, if we give 743 00:20:38.470 --> 00:20:39.470 them. 744 00:20:39.590 --> 00:20:40.819 Is that worked? 745 00:20:40.820 --> 00:20:42.929 If you got boots, if you got it 746 00:20:42.930 --> 00:20:44.749 right, if you got boots, that 747 00:20:44.750 --> 00:20:47.029 work. So we have been, 748 00:20:47.030 --> 00:20:48.679 you know, in this mindset of 749 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:50.179 equality, just give everybody the 750 00:20:50.180 --> 00:20:51.559 same thing. 751 00:20:51.560 --> 00:20:52.609 Well, when you're when you're 752 00:20:52.610 --> 00:20:54.469 starting from a deficit position, 753 00:20:54.470 --> 00:20:55.849 when you're starting from not having 754 00:20:55.850 --> 00:20:57.979 had the same thing, 755 00:20:57.980 --> 00:20:59.329 you know, you need to give people 756 00:20:59.330 --> 00:21:00.979 what they need in order to succeed. 757 00:21:00.980 --> 00:21:02.149 So the image in the book that you're 758 00:21:02.150 --> 00:21:03.469 talking about is look like these 759 00:21:03.470 --> 00:21:05.449 three little kids trying to see over 760 00:21:05.450 --> 00:21:07.849 a fence to a baseball game. 761 00:21:07.850 --> 00:21:09.829 And they gave they gave all the kids 762 00:21:09.830 --> 00:21:11.149 the same size box. 763 00:21:11.150 --> 00:21:13.549 Well, you know, one child was tall 764 00:21:13.550 --> 00:21:14.719 and he didn't need a box. 765 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:15.629 Exactly. 766 00:21:15.630 --> 00:21:17.509 The another child was very 767 00:21:17.510 --> 00:21:18.659 short. She needed to box. 768 00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:19.669 And the third child was in a 769 00:21:19.670 --> 00:21:20.959 wheelchair and didn't need the box 770 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:22.549 at all. It needed a ramp, you know, 771 00:21:22.550 --> 00:21:24.439 in order to get up, you know, to 772 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:26.299 see. And so when we think about 773 00:21:26.300 --> 00:21:27.469 equity, that's equity. 774 00:21:27.470 --> 00:21:29.299 So equity is when, 775 00:21:29.300 --> 00:21:30.679 you know, when we give people what 776 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:32.659 they need, equality is was talking 777 00:21:32.660 --> 00:21:34.129 about giving people all the same 778 00:21:34.130 --> 00:21:36.019 thing. And I maintain that we 779 00:21:36.020 --> 00:21:37.699 need equity to get to equality. 780 00:21:37.700 --> 00:21:39.289 So equality is our end point. 781 00:21:39.290 --> 00:21:41.749 We first have to we first have to 782 00:21:41.750 --> 00:21:42.739 get to equity. 783 00:21:42.740 --> 00:21:44.329 We first have to give people what 784 00:21:44.330 --> 00:21:45.679 they need. And we see this playing 785 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:47.269 out against structural racism. 786 00:21:47.270 --> 00:21:49.039 We see this playing out where people 787 00:21:49.040 --> 00:21:50.869 say, Oh, you know, we're giving all 788 00:21:50.870 --> 00:21:52.369 of these folks, you know, welfare 789 00:21:52.370 --> 00:21:53.539 and all this. And, you know, truth 790 00:21:53.540 --> 00:21:54.589 be told, more white people get 791 00:21:54.590 --> 00:21:55.429 wealth than a black people. 792 00:21:55.430 --> 00:21:56.749 But that's a whole nother story. 793 00:21:56.750 --> 00:21:58.549 Right? Right. But yeah, but the idea 794 00:21:58.550 --> 00:22:00.499 is that there's a mindset in this 795 00:22:00.500 --> 00:22:02.179 country which has been fueled by 796 00:22:02.180 --> 00:22:04.069 this current administration 797 00:22:04.070 --> 00:22:05.959 that is this this 798 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:08.119 unequal playing field. 799 00:22:08.120 --> 00:22:09.619 And the unequal playing field now is 800 00:22:09.620 --> 00:22:10.729 towards whites, that there's some 801 00:22:10.730 --> 00:22:11.989 kind of, you know, reverse 802 00:22:11.990 --> 00:22:12.769 discrimination. 803 00:22:12.770 --> 00:22:13.759 I say discrimination is 804 00:22:13.760 --> 00:22:14.719 discrimination. I don't know about 805 00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:16.519 reverse. You know, we should we 806 00:22:16.520 --> 00:22:17.509 should be at parity. 807 00:22:17.510 --> 00:22:19.219 And when we're at parity, it means 808 00:22:19.220 --> 00:22:21.289 that we are at a place of equity. 809 00:22:21.290 --> 00:22:22.519 And we all know that we're at that 810 00:22:22.520 --> 00:22:24.319 we have equity when we can no longer 811 00:22:24.320 --> 00:22:26.479 predict outcomes by one's identity. 812 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:27.799 And currently we can predict 813 00:22:27.800 --> 00:22:29.989 outcomes by one's identity. 814 00:22:29.990 --> 00:22:31.459 We can predict outcomes for black 815 00:22:31.460 --> 00:22:33.019 people. We can predict that black 816 00:22:33.020 --> 00:22:34.399 people are going to be disproportionately 817 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:35.939 impacted by the coronavirus. 818 00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:37.249 Right. And there was there was 819 00:22:37.250 --> 00:22:38.899 surprised by that as well. 820 00:22:38.900 --> 00:22:39.769 You know, black people weren't 821 00:22:39.770 --> 00:22:41.329 surprised. We know we the health 822 00:22:41.330 --> 00:22:42.979 care industry has known for years 823 00:22:42.980 --> 00:22:44.719 that black people are disproportionately 824 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:46.579 impacted for another a number of 825 00:22:46.580 --> 00:22:47.389 different reasons. 826 00:22:47.390 --> 00:22:49.369 And so that is truly not 827 00:22:49.370 --> 00:22:51.019 equity. Part of the reason for the 828 00:22:51.020 --> 00:22:52.319 health care is access. 829 00:22:52.320 --> 00:22:53.719 That's one aspect of it. 830 00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:55.219 But the other another aspect of it 831 00:22:55.220 --> 00:22:57.049 is just when you do get treated, you 832 00:22:57.050 --> 00:22:58.969 don't get treated the same way. 833 00:22:58.970 --> 00:22:59.929 I got this in the book. 834 00:22:59.930 --> 00:23:01.699 Two studies show that black people 835 00:23:01.700 --> 00:23:03.439 are not given the same kind of pain 836 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.279 medication as white people 837 00:23:05.280 --> 00:23:07.909 for the same kind of indicators. 838 00:23:07.910 --> 00:23:09.649 You know, black black women don't 839 00:23:09.650 --> 00:23:11.659 get as many mammograms 840 00:23:11.660 --> 00:23:13.399 as white women when they have breast 841 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:15.739 cancer. So there's all sorts of 842 00:23:15.740 --> 00:23:17.569 disparities within 843 00:23:17.570 --> 00:23:18.379 the health system. 844 00:23:18.380 --> 00:23:20.209 And we do not have we do not 845 00:23:20.210 --> 00:23:21.319 have equity. 846 00:23:21.320 --> 00:23:23.209 And when we have an administration, 847 00:23:23.210 --> 00:23:24.139 we won't have them anymore. 848 00:23:24.140 --> 00:23:25.249 But we have an administration that 849 00:23:25.250 --> 00:23:26.509 says things like there is no such 850 00:23:26.510 --> 00:23:28.669 thing as systemic racism. 851 00:23:28.670 --> 00:23:30.469 Pence said that How would you know? 852 00:23:30.470 --> 00:23:31.879 How would you know that there's no 853 00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:33.769 such thing as systemic racism if 854 00:23:33.770 --> 00:23:35.059 you have not experienced it. 855 00:23:35.060 --> 00:23:37.099 And so to dismiss 856 00:23:37.100 --> 00:23:38.779 that certain groups, when the data 857 00:23:38.780 --> 00:23:40.759 is just so apparent in 858 00:23:40.760 --> 00:23:41.269 evidence. 859 00:23:41.270 --> 00:23:43.219 Now there's two chapters that are 860 00:23:43.220 --> 00:23:45.259 on point with what's going on 861 00:23:45.260 --> 00:23:47.029 at the time of this discussion. 862 00:23:47.030 --> 00:23:48.859 Chapter six Say your Name Black 863 00:23:48.860 --> 00:23:50.749 Women's Fatigue and 864 00:23:50.750 --> 00:23:52.219 I Can't Really Breathe. 865 00:23:52.220 --> 00:23:53.389 Black Men's Fatigue. 866 00:23:53.390 --> 00:23:55.369 Why was those two chapters important 867 00:23:55.370 --> 00:23:56.689 for you to articulate? 868 00:23:56.690 --> 00:23:58.699 Because I think the fatigue plays 869 00:23:58.700 --> 00:24:00.619 out differently for black women than 870 00:24:00.620 --> 00:24:02.299 it does for black men. 871 00:24:02.300 --> 00:24:03.739 You know, one of the authors of 872 00:24:03.740 --> 00:24:05.929 another study say black men 873 00:24:05.930 --> 00:24:07.939 get locked up and black 874 00:24:07.940 --> 00:24:09.589 women get locked out. 875 00:24:09.590 --> 00:24:11.539 And so you see, you know, 876 00:24:11.540 --> 00:24:12.889 a disproportionate number of black 877 00:24:12.890 --> 00:24:14.659 men who are who are locked up. 878 00:24:14.660 --> 00:24:15.649 Disproportionate number of black 879 00:24:15.650 --> 00:24:16.789 women are locked up as well. 880 00:24:16.790 --> 00:24:18.829 But not it's not as extreme as it is 881 00:24:18.830 --> 00:24:20.689 for you know, for for for 882 00:24:20.690 --> 00:24:22.669 women. But what happens 883 00:24:22.670 --> 00:24:24.439 to single mothers for, you know, for 884 00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:26.149 black women is that they're getting 885 00:24:26.150 --> 00:24:28.129 evicted at much higher rates 886 00:24:28.130 --> 00:24:29.749 than than white women are. 887 00:24:29.750 --> 00:24:31.069 And when you have an eviction, it's 888 00:24:31.070 --> 00:24:31.849 hard to get a job. 889 00:24:31.850 --> 00:24:33.469 There's not systemic racism where 890 00:24:33.470 --> 00:24:34.519 you get you have an eviction. 891 00:24:34.520 --> 00:24:36.019 It's hard to get another apartment. 892 00:24:36.020 --> 00:24:36.949 You know, if you do get on your 893 00:24:36.950 --> 00:24:38.569 feet, it's hard to get a job when 894 00:24:38.570 --> 00:24:40.099 you have you have an eviction. 895 00:24:40.100 --> 00:24:42.019 And so I wanted to articulate 896 00:24:42.020 --> 00:24:43.909 how the fatigue plays out 897 00:24:43.910 --> 00:24:45.979 differently for black men 898 00:24:45.980 --> 00:24:47.839 than it does for black black 899 00:24:47.840 --> 00:24:49.759 women. No, I have a part in 900 00:24:49.760 --> 00:24:51.829 the book about mental 901 00:24:51.830 --> 00:24:52.729 health care. 902 00:24:52.730 --> 00:24:54.199 And for black men that's been a 903 00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:55.939 stigma and they haven't reached out 904 00:24:55.940 --> 00:24:57.079 to get that. You know, they've got 905 00:24:57.080 --> 00:24:58.879 now what's called the barbershop 906 00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:00.259 therapy, where people are training 907 00:25:00.260 --> 00:25:01.969 barbers, you know, not to be real, 908 00:25:01.970 --> 00:25:02.809 you know, therapist, but they're 909 00:25:02.810 --> 00:25:04.369 training barbers to be able to 910 00:25:04.370 --> 00:25:05.779 listen in a way with empathy 911 00:25:05.780 --> 00:25:07.099 because, you know, the barbershop in 912 00:25:07.100 --> 00:25:08.269 the black community has been that 913 00:25:08.270 --> 00:25:09.829 place where you you feel like you 914 00:25:09.830 --> 00:25:12.049 can let your your you know, 915 00:25:12.050 --> 00:25:13.789 you can be open and talk with your 916 00:25:13.790 --> 00:25:15.619 barber And so. 917 00:25:15.620 --> 00:25:17.479 You know, there are some things that 918 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:18.979 are being done to, you know, to 919 00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:19.759 support that. 920 00:25:19.760 --> 00:25:21.499 But I wanted those two chapters to 921 00:25:21.500 --> 00:25:23.349 play out, to recognize that, 922 00:25:23.350 --> 00:25:24.769 you know, being black and being a 923 00:25:24.770 --> 00:25:26.749 woman, the intersection of blackness 924 00:25:26.750 --> 00:25:28.579 and the intersection of womanhood 925 00:25:28.580 --> 00:25:30.229 is a very different experience than 926 00:25:30.230 --> 00:25:31.669 it is for black men. 927 00:25:31.670 --> 00:25:34.249 Very fatiguing, very, 928 00:25:34.250 --> 00:25:36.349 you know, very much both 929 00:25:36.350 --> 00:25:37.909 experiences. 930 00:25:37.910 --> 00:25:38.959 We don't have equity. 931 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:40.399 We have a lot of racism. 932 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:42.109 But I wanted to articulate how those 933 00:25:42.110 --> 00:25:43.579 are play out differently, because I 934 00:25:43.580 --> 00:25:45.739 don't think we look enough at 935 00:25:45.740 --> 00:25:48.109 the very distinct 936 00:25:48.110 --> 00:25:50.209 differences that we have 937 00:25:50.210 --> 00:25:51.529 at the intersection. 938 00:25:51.530 --> 00:25:52.969 So think about in the book I talk 939 00:25:52.970 --> 00:25:54.799 about you're black, you're 940 00:25:54.800 --> 00:25:56.539 a woman, you're a single mother, and 941 00:25:56.540 --> 00:25:57.949 you're poor. All of those are 942 00:25:57.950 --> 00:25:59.809 stigmatized identities and 943 00:25:59.810 --> 00:26:01.669 they all are compounded then 944 00:26:01.670 --> 00:26:03.979 to create situations that 945 00:26:03.980 --> 00:26:05.899 that preclude black women from 946 00:26:05.900 --> 00:26:07.129 achieving what they would like to 947 00:26:07.130 --> 00:26:07.819 achieve. 948 00:26:07.820 --> 00:26:09.679 You know, I understand now you have 949 00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:11.689 words of wisdom on each 950 00:26:11.690 --> 00:26:13.609 chapter. You begin 951 00:26:13.610 --> 00:26:15.169 with words of wisdom from Toni 952 00:26:15.170 --> 00:26:16.579 Morrison, and you end the book with 953 00:26:16.580 --> 00:26:18.979 words of wisdom from Angela Davis. 954 00:26:18.980 --> 00:26:20.869 Why was this necessary 955 00:26:20.870 --> 00:26:23.419 or important to you to include 956 00:26:23.420 --> 00:26:24.769 include those words? 957 00:26:26.700 --> 00:26:28.579 Yeah, because I think that 958 00:26:28.580 --> 00:26:30.469 there are so many with wisdom who 959 00:26:30.470 --> 00:26:32.359 have gone on who have been before 960 00:26:32.360 --> 00:26:34.009 me. As a matter of fact, in the 961 00:26:34.010 --> 00:26:36.409 preface, which it did come out, I 962 00:26:36.410 --> 00:26:37.759 named a bunch of people in the 963 00:26:37.760 --> 00:26:39.249 preface, but I didn't make the book 964 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:42.889 widely, but I named 965 00:26:42.890 --> 00:26:44.539 even more so. I think I found the 966 00:26:44.540 --> 00:26:46.159 point at the point of Black Fatigue 967 00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:47.809 is that, you know, other people have 968 00:26:47.810 --> 00:26:49.129 you know, I don't think what I have 969 00:26:49.130 --> 00:26:51.319 said is so revolutionary. 970 00:26:51.320 --> 00:26:52.669 Other people have said the same 971 00:26:52.670 --> 00:26:53.509 thing. You know, I thought, you 972 00:26:53.510 --> 00:26:55.039 know, I as you know, I quote James 973 00:26:55.040 --> 00:26:56.539 Baldwin quite a bit, you know, in 974 00:26:56.540 --> 00:26:57.769 the book as well. 975 00:26:57.770 --> 00:26:59.539 And so other people have said and 976 00:26:59.540 --> 00:27:00.949 but the point is, is that then is 977 00:27:00.950 --> 00:27:01.969 now, because I have a whole chapter 978 00:27:01.970 --> 00:27:03.829 on then is now Things have not 979 00:27:03.830 --> 00:27:05.539 changed in the 1960s. 980 00:27:05.540 --> 00:27:07.639 You know, James, I hear people 981 00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:09.379 here's what I hear my clients saying 982 00:27:09.380 --> 00:27:10.819 these days. What we need to give at 983 00:27:10.820 --> 00:27:12.739 times is going to take a long time. 984 00:27:12.740 --> 00:27:13.909 Well, how much time do we need? 985 00:27:13.910 --> 00:27:15.499 And James Baldwin said this, you 986 00:27:15.500 --> 00:27:16.849 know, my grandfather's time, my 987 00:27:16.850 --> 00:27:18.439 grandmother's time, you know, how 988 00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:19.249 much time do we need? 989 00:27:19.250 --> 00:27:20.149 We've had time. 990 00:27:20.150 --> 00:27:22.129 And so, you know, time is no longer 991 00:27:22.130 --> 00:27:23.659 an excuse. I wanted to bring those 992 00:27:23.660 --> 00:27:25.579 voices into the book to 993 00:27:25.580 --> 00:27:26.959 recognize that these things have 994 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:28.039 been said before. 995 00:27:28.040 --> 00:27:29.989 We are at a point where this is not 996 00:27:29.990 --> 00:27:30.649 new. 997 00:27:30.650 --> 00:27:32.839 Mary Frances Winters, founder 998 00:27:32.840 --> 00:27:34.759 and president of the women's group 999 00:27:34.760 --> 00:27:36.799 and author of Black Fatigue How 1000 00:27:36.800 --> 00:27:39.019 Racism Erode the Mind, Body 1001 00:27:39.020 --> 00:27:40.549 and Spirit. 1002 00:27:40.550 --> 00:27:42.109 If you have questions, comments or 1003 00:27:42.110 --> 00:27:43.669 suggestions that show a future In 1004 00:27:43.670 --> 00:27:45.919 Black America programs, email 1005 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:48.289 us at In Black America at Cutie 1006 00:27:48.290 --> 00:27:49.879 dot org. 1007 00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:52.009 Also, let us know what radio station 1008 00:27:52.010 --> 00:27:53.209 you heard us over. 1009 00:27:53.210 --> 00:27:54.799 Don't forget to subscribe to our 1010 00:27:54.800 --> 00:27:57.229 podcast and follow up on Facebook 1011 00:27:57.230 --> 00:27:58.399 and Twitter. 1012 00:27:58.400 --> 00:27:59.779 You can hear previous programs 1013 00:27:59.780 --> 00:28:02.689 online at QJ dot org. 1014 00:28:02.690 --> 00:28:04.309 Also, you can listen to a special 1015 00:28:04.310 --> 00:28:05.959 collection of hidden Black America 1016 00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:08.029 programs at American Archive 1017 00:28:08.030 --> 00:28:09.499 of Public Broadcasting. 1018 00:28:09.500 --> 00:28:12.709 That's American Archived at OAG. 1019 00:28:12.710 --> 00:28:14.599 The views and opinions expressed on 1020 00:28:14.600 --> 00:28:16.489 this program are not necessarily 1021 00:28:16.490 --> 00:28:18.469 those of this station or 1022 00:28:18.470 --> 00:28:20.179 of the University of Texas at 1023 00:28:20.180 --> 00:28:20.989 Austin. 1024 00:28:20.990 --> 00:28:23.059 Until we have the opportunity again 1025 00:28:23.060 --> 00:28:24.829 for technical producer David 1026 00:28:24.830 --> 00:28:25.729 Alvarez. 1027 00:28:25.730 --> 00:28:26.509 I'm John L. 1028 00:28:26.510 --> 00:28:27.679 Hansen, Jr. 1029 00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:29.299 Thank you for joining us today. 1030 00:28:29.300 --> 00:28:31.699 Please join us again next week. 1031 00:28:31.700 --> 00:28:33.649 CD Copies of this program 1032 00:28:33.650 --> 00:28:35.449 are available and may be purchased 1033 00:28:35.450 --> 00:28:37.215 by writing In Black America at KUT 1034 00:28:39.290 --> 00:28:41.119 Radio 300 W. 1035 00:28:41.120 --> 00:28:43.039 Dean Keeton St. Austin, 1036 00:28:43.040 --> 00:28:45.530 Texas 78712. 1037 00:28:57.100 --> 00:28:59.379 This has been a production of KUT 1038 00:28:59.380 --> 00:29:00.380 radio.